Announcement | March 11, 2011 17:56

The Full English Breakfast #8 - Scandalous Times

The Full English BreakfastThe F.E.B. #8 is out! French cheating, open letter feuds, Carlsen in New York, Cappelle la Grande, and the best team names from the World Amateur Team Championships. With special guest Malcolm Pein, plus a Kiss parody band's ode to bughouse and blitz. Don't miss this one!

About the Full English Breakfast

Mission: Bring the serious chess news analysis. VERY serious, and not at all witty. Definitely not tongue in cheek. ;) Origins: The Full English Breakfast started life as a late night brainstorm at the 2009 GibTel (now Tradewise) Chess Festival in Gibraltar. Trent and Macauley struck up a conversation about things missing in the chess media, and hit upon the idea of doing a podcast combining the serious with the slightly sophomoric. Trent quickly brought in his pal Stevie G. dramatically raising both the intellectual and the dialectical heft of the new ensemble. And the rest, as they say, is hysterical.

The Full English Breakfast #8


You can subscribe to The Full English Breakfast via iTunes at TheFeb.com. Click here to add it to your iTunes podcasts directly.

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Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

BTW this is from Europe-Echecs.com...

Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

Well, if we dont have access to those SMS, it is just speculations...

In any case, it was up to the FFE to make sure they couldn't communicate and yet they provided the phones and then they try to sue them, how can people not condemn such behavior?

Thomas's picture

"it was up to the FFE to make sure they couldn’t communicate ..."

This would make sense if the federation had been suspicious of Marzolo, Hauchard and Feller already before the Olympiad. But in that case, Marzolo wouldn't have been provided with a phone, Hauchard wouldn't be the French coach and Feller wouldn't be on the national team.

As it stands, the fact that it was a federation phone makes matters, if anything, worse. They trusted Marzolo, maybe he was actually supposed to help the team from a distance - in between, but NOT during games? If I borrow my car to someone for a trip to the local supermarket, it doesn't mean that he is (formally) allowed to drive from the Netherlands to Italy and back, speed on the highways and rob a bank! I, and anyone else, would have every right to "condemn such behavior"!

Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

There is no interpretation, It is a big blow for the FFE: this means that they won't have access to the content of those SMS which is probably the only evidence they had to build their case before the disciplinary commission.
Besides they have to pay them for their legal expenses(the quotes are from Europe-Echecs.com), isn't it enough for you to change your mind already?

"And maybe they have something to hide, else they could agree to share the SMS's?"

I have nothing to hide but I wouldn't show you my SMS, thankfully there are laws to ban people like you to trash the right to privacy!

SXL's picture

Otto has been trying to spin this like a paid pr consultant for the cheaters since day one. And he is deliberately misleading in his description above. The magistrate made no ruling on the case, but on allowing the SMS evidence in his court. He stated the SMS messages would either have to be released by the players, OR the case be brought before a criminal court, where the cheaters' approval wouldn't be required.

As this is clearly a criminal matter, it won't be long.

And BTW, interesting to see that my long description of how they cheated, in the comments of the first article here, was close to the truth. No wonder Otto the Defender of Cheats, aka bought and paid for, tried to dismiss it.

SXL's picture

Otto has been trying to spin this like a paid pr consultant for the cheaters since day one. And he is deliberately misleading in his description above. The magistrate made no ruling on the case, but on allowing the SMS evidence in his court. He stated the SMS messages would either have to be released by the players, OR the case be brought before a criminal court, where the cheaters’ approval wouldn’t be required.
As this is clearly a criminal matter, it won’t be long.
And BTW, interesting to see that my long description of how they cheated, in the comments of the first article here, was close to the truth. No wonder Otto the Defender of Cheats, aka bought and paid for, tried to dismiss it.

Delinquncy's picture

Feller won money in the Olympiad, so likely fraud could be criminal.

Best Individual performance in both Open and Women’s sections
ALL Boards:
1st. - EUR 5.000
2nd. - EUR 3.000
3rd. - EUR 2.000
http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/4550-prizes-fo...

5000 euros is enough for a felony. Jurisdiction in Russia complicates. Whether the trio defrauded the FFE directly can matter also.

But the FFE just had stupid legal advise, the Nanterre decision was fairly obvious on civil law standards, and at best they wasted 7500 euros just to show the world the defendants were fully clamming up.

Thomas's picture

Do I get this right??
1) You acknowledge that the content of these SMS messages may constitute evidence for cheating.
2) You are perfectly happy that "we don't have access to those SMS", hence
3) You want the federation to be "spanked by a judge", and don't care about the truth with respect to cheating accusations. As a matter of fact, only Marzolo, Hauchard and Feller themselves know whether they are innocent or guilty (saying "I am innocent!" doesn't make them innocent ...). The federation has suspicions and decided to investigate.

Regarding privacy or secrecy of communication: Of course I have neither right nor reason to check your SMS's - I don't know you and probably don't know any of your phone contacts. Potential or suspected drug dealers or terrorists no longer enjoy secrecy of communication (these are criminal and/or security cases). One judge decided that cheating in chess isn't a serious offense - in that respect SXL may be wrong from a legal point of view that "this is clearly a criminal matter" (while I generally agree with his post). But this remains to be seen, a higher instance can overrule the decision of this single judge.

If this was the end of the story, noone could really be happy. A conclusion could be that the players are guilty (at least "lingering doubts" remain), but the evidence cannot be used in court hence they are legally(!) innocent. Before anyone makes misleading comparisons: it would be a VERY different case if the players had been tortured to provide false confessions.

Septimus's picture

Home-page worked! Thank you! :)

R.Mutt's picture

I think it shows that you should always use a pre-paid phone - not registered in your name - to cheat, rather than one you got from your chess federation! Amateurs.

Thomas's picture

I don't know the source for your French quote, but your summary or interpretation of the Chessbase article is biased and misleading, to say the least. Apparently one judge "refused to allow the federation to go through the SMS", but the last word in court still has to be spoken. Some quotes:
- "The judge hearing determined ... that "no legal provision gave him the power to waive the confidentiality”, since it could be done “only in a criminal case or one of security." [so it depends whether cheating in chess constitutes a criminal case or not?]
- "the magistrate ruled that "it would be unfair for Mr Marzolo, Hauchard and Feller (...) to bear the full cost of the procedure", and ordered the FFE reimburse them part of the fees." [so the sums you mentioned are not çompensation for reputation damage]
"As it had announced in a press release on January 27, the FFE therefore reserves the right to take the case to a criminal court, where the secrecy of correspondence could be lifted. [last word still to be spoken?]
Nevertheless , and given the decision of the Judge, the FFE, which notes the absolute refusal by the defendants to have these documents handed to a bailiff, will not seek their communication, which in any case would merely have added to the different elements regarding the disciplinary case. [SMS's aren't "the only thing they had"!?]
In any event, the Judge’s ruling only concerned the availability of the contents of the SMS exchanged, without addressing the case’s merits." [The players may have scored a procedural victory, in tennis terms they won a set but not the match. And maybe they have something to hide, else they could agree to share the SMS's?]

Chesslov's picture

It seems there is a misunderstanding in the english translation.

It is not the Federation that gave a mobile phone to Marzolo, but Mrs Pomian, as CEO of her self-owned consultancy company, to her accountant in this company, Cyril Marzolo.
Mrs Pomian is btw the VP of the French Federation, and Cyril Marzolo IM.
But the connection between Pomian and Marzolo is the one from an employer with an employee, and it seems that both are as well currently in conflict on the term of terminating Marzolo employment and will have a hearing in front oif the Judge for Working Affaire (Prudhomme) in a near future.
So Mrs Pomian had access to the webportal of this account, and that's the way she seems to have seen SMS exchanged between Marzolo and Hauchard. As she was not supposed to supervize this account, this is already in two way against the law: against the law protecting the employee against illegal intrusion from the employer (the employer has to inform the employee about the suprvizing of communication) and secret of correspondance.
This is what has been confirmed by this judgement: Mrs Pomian has no right to have access to this messages (and any other messages) whatsoever.

There are still no information yet on what happenned with these sms and on their contents. Even, let's imagine that, if an IM is exchanging analysis with a IGM during a tournament, both not playing that tournament, how do they complete the cheat?
How do this informnation reach the playing IGM?
Did the information reached him? How?
And even if the information reached him, did he used it? Did he asked for it? Or was it in fact a disturbance?

The SMS are just one of the flaws in the way the Federation is managing the whole story.
Anmd the fact that one of the player accused by the Frenche Federation VP is in fact a previous employee of this very VP shades IMHO a very stange light on the whole story.

Georgios Souleidis's picture

Great show guys. I´ve listen the first time to FEB and found it really amusing and informative especially the part with Malcolm Pein.
Grzegorz Gajewski :-)))

Septimus's picture

Can some kind soul please post a transcript? I am unable to get the audio working (problem on my end). :(

Macauley's picture

It's 33 minutes, so a transcript would probably have to be crowd-sourced via a Wiki or something. But, have you tried playing it back from the home page?
http://www.TheFEB.com
Or subscribe in iTunes.
Or both! :)

Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

Did you read the Chessbase article about the cheating case?
what do you think?

Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

Haha I was right all along, if you read Chessbase (and I'm sure CV is preparing an article), the FFE got spanked by the judge:
their evidence is supposed to be SMS from a phone the FFE provided to Marzolo, but the Judge refused to allow the federation to go through the SMS...
So the only thing they had is gone...LMAO
What a shame...now they will have to pay some compensation for the reputation damage done to those players...

Wouter Otto Levenbach aka Dave's picture

Par ces motifs
Déboutons la Fédération Française des Echecs et Mme Pomian. Condamnons la Fédération Française des Echecs à payer, sur le fondement de l'article 700 du code de procédure pénale.

à M. Marzolo la somme de 2500 euros
à M. Feller la somme de 2500 euros
à M. Hauchard la somme de 2000 euros
à la société SFR service client la somme de 500 euros (Phone service provider)

Total = 7 500 E for the FFE to pay to the victims, hmm next time they will think twice before going public without evidence!

Delinquncy's picture

Here is a loose translation from the official decision, it appears as a GIF in the Europe Echecs site. I did try to keep the sense of it, with due respect to legal issues. Sentence structure is almost impossible to imitate some times. ChessVibes can use this a base, but should ask someone better acquainted with French nuance in debatable measures.

This is part 1, describing the case (including many facts I didn't know).

Injunction issued March 10, 2011.

After hearing the parties (or their counsel) on Feb 24, we have taken the matter under advisement today:

Outlines of the dispute

The French chess federation (FFE) on February 9 requested a subpoena against Marzolo, Hauchard, and Feller and the (phone) company SFR for the purpose of enlisting a court-appointed bailiff whose task would be to transcribe the incoming and outgoing messages on ********** between Sep 18 and Oct 5 (2010).

In support of their application, Ms. Pomian (vice-president of the FFE) stated she had lent this line to Mr. Marzolo on the occasion of an international competition, and she realised it was used by him to send short messages to Mr. Hauchard. The latter possessed a computer with chess software, thus providing illegal assistance to Mr. Feller, who was participating in the competition.

The FFE indicated they wanted to obtain the messages that were exchanged to establish proof of fraudulent collusion between Marzolo, Haucard, and Feller, prior to their hearing before the FFE Ethics Commission.

At the hearing on Feb 24, Ms. Pomian voluntarily intervened. After having presented herself as the owner of the phone line at issue, she stated that she was able to obtain access (in good faith, and without fraud) to the content of the messages exchanged by Marzolo and Hauchard, via the customer area of the SFR website. She could then be empowered to deliver this to the FFE, assuming that secrecy of correspondence did not apply. If this were not permissible, she requested the appointment of a bailiff who would transcribe the contents of said messages from the customer area of the SFR website.

The FFE indicated that, given the voluntary intervention of Ms. Pomain, they withdrew their first request to obtain directly from the SFR the messages exchanged on this line. Rather, joining the petition of Ms. Pomain, they now seek an order that the messages in dispute may be accessed through the website of the SFR.

Marzolo, Hauchard, and Feller opposed this request, arguing that the messages exchanged between them on the line that was made available to Marzolo are covered by the guarantee of secrecy of correspondence (Article 1 of the Act of 10 July 1991), which cannot be infringed except in criminal matters or those of security.

They make a counterclaim (on the basis of Article 700 of the Civil Procedure) for the amount of 4500 euros each for Marzolo and Feller, and 2000 euros for Hauchard.

The SFR accepts the discontinuance of the proceedings directed at them, but requests the sum of 1500 euros on the basis of the same Article.

SXL's picture

As I understand it, the French Federation handed out mobile phones to its players during the Olympiad and had these handed back in after the competition.
The person from the Federation happened to see the SMS messages, showing moves being transmitted from the person with the computer to the person relaying moves to the player.
They will have been able to see from the Time Stamp that this happened during the games, and the team captain will have been able to check his log, and will have seen that the two cheating assistants were not in active play.

France did amazingly well during the Olympiad, and the Federation has integrity, which they should be lauded for - it's a heavy burden to accuse one's own players of cheating.
They have the evidence, and now wish to present it. The players, in desperation, are trying to turn this into a human rights issue, basing their case on jurisprudence that will not hold up anywhere, hoping that the SMS messages will not be admissible as evidence, resulting in a dismissal of the charges.
However, it will be easy to prove thatbthis was criminal behavior, and the SMS messages will be made public as evidence in the criminal court.
The Federation probably wanted to sort this out in quiet, but when the players refused to accept responsibility it made the case public.

The players have much to lose, but clearly didn't care less about the other teams at the Olympiad they defrauded of their rightful place in the standings.

And as I've written before. It is super easy to cheat. Moves should always be transmitted with fifteen minute delay. WiFi, BluTooth and Cell phones, PDAs should be electronically suppressed if you want to avoid cheating. Unless strong measures are enacted, then all results become dubious, at the expense of those players who do not cheat.

Delinquncy's picture

Reasons for the decision

Section 145 of the Code of Civil Procedure limits the measures that the "judge in chambers" [the judge of the current decision] may order regarding what evidence can be legally presented at a trial.

It is undisputed that the messages that exchanged communications were made on a telephone line owned [subscribed] by Ms. Pomian, and just as undisputed that this line was put at the disposal of Marzolo.

Under Article 1 of Law 91-646 of July 10, 1991, the secrecy of correspondence sent through electronic communications is guaranteed by law. This can only be abrogated by the public authority in cases of public necessity prescribed by the law and within the limits fixed by it.

This right to secrecy of correspondence is general in scope, and is not limited only to correspondence exchanged by the holder's contractual means by which they are addressed (guessing, this means that "correspondence" is implied between persons, and not the gadgets they own or borrow). It follows that when the owner of a phone line confers the use of this to a third party, said owner may not undermine the secrecy of correspondence of any communication made on this phone line.

Therefore, although he himself is not the subscriber to line **********, Marzolo enjoys the right to secrecy of correspondence exchanged via this line, from the time when the permament(?) use of this line was granted to him by the owner of this line, Ms. Pomian. ("Permanent" I surmise here means more of that he was using the line on his own volition, and not as Pomian's agent.)

The fact that Pomian signed the subscription contract and has the ability to access the message content via the technical device made available from the SFR website does not exempt the legal obligation to respect the secrecy of correspondence.

No legal provision confers the "judge in chambers" the right to lift this secrecy, and it follows that the claims by the FFE and Pomian, as they demand such a lifting, cannot be received.

It would unfair that Marzolo, Hauchard, and Feller, and the SFR bear the full cost of the proceedings, not included in expenses. (?)

FOR THESE REASONS

The suit of the FFE and Pomian is rejected.

On the basis of Article 700 of the Code of Criminal (sic) Procedure, the FFE is to pay:
- to Marzolo the sum of 2500 euros
- to Feller the sum of 2500 euros
- to Hauchard the sum of 2000 euros
- to the SFR the sum of 500 euros

The FFE is also to pay (court?) costs.

Delinquncy's picture

Drat, so I managed not to attach this 2nd part to the first part I commented. The case seems rather obvious to me. The FFE wanted to get/present secret phone communications for a civil case. The French law says no, even if the phone was just being borrowed and the owner can access this.

SXL's picture

Yes, and the reason they want to use the SFR stored version of the messages is to have evidence that can be said to be untainted by any possible manipulation. The cheaters' defense lawyer could claim that the messages they forgot to delete on the mobile phone had been changed. But the SFR printout would stand as definite evidence.

Now the cheaters are gambling that the FFE won't take the cost of pressing a criminal charge.

Delinquncy's picture

Feller's father said two weeks ago: "Tout est parti d'un témoignage de la vice-présidente de la Fédération, qui aurait vu un SMS sur le téléphone d'Arnaud Hauchard disant : dépêche-toi de me filer des coups, témoigne Christian Feller, le père de Sébastien. Translation: 'Mais ça ne tient pas debout. It all started with testimony of the vice-prez of FFE who saw an SMS from Hauchard that said 'hurry up and send me moves'---but that makes no sense." This from the Europe Echecs site, they link to a Lorraine newspaper
http://www.republicain-lorrain.fr/fr/article/4680807/Le-Grand-maitre-Fel...

SXL's picture

Otto, The Cheaters' Tool, should stop giving negative ratings to people who disagree with his attempts at spin.

Peter Doggers's picture

To continue this debate and be on-topic at the same time, please visit http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/french-cheating-case-federation-cannot...

Some Guy's picture

Here is the game where Lawrence ran his king to g3:

http://www.essexchess.org.uk/Old_site/game_txt/GajTre.htm

tomsqwk's picture

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ex|them|the pup|her|your ex boyfriend|your man|the dog|your guy} {down the road|in the future|later on|as time goes on|down the line|later on in life|in time|at a later date|later|within the future|in the}.{The|The actual|The particular|Your|This|A|Any|Typically the|All the|That|All of the} #file_links\keywords14.txt,1,S] injury {might have|may have|could have|probably have|will often have|could possibly have|likely have|can have|will surely have|likely would have|would've} {hurt|harm|damage|injure|injured|harmed|wounded|damaged|pain|distress|cause harm to} Harri #file_links\keywords13.txt,1,S #file_links\keywords15.txt,1,S] ] {son|boy|child|kid|daughter|youngster|young man|child ,|toddler|son and daughter|young boy} s {chances of|likelihood of|odds of|probability of|probabilities of|possibilities of|possibility of|prospects of|risks of|occur|possibilities} {being|becoming|getting|staying|currently being|remaining|simply being|to be|appearing|increasingly being|really being} 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{turned|switched|flipped|transformed|made|converted|changed|spun|rotated|became|directed} {heads|mind|brain|brains|minds|leads|scalps|head|goes|thoughts|managers} {at the|in the|on the|with the|for the|within the|along at the|around the|from the|inside the|along the} {NFL|National football league|American footbal|Football|Nhl|Nba} {Scouting|Searching|Trying to find|Searching for|Looking} {Combine|Mix|Blend|Incorporate|Merge|Put together|Unite|Join|Include|Intermix|Mix together} {in|within|inside|throughout|with|around|during|on|when it comes to|for|found in} {February|Feb|Feb .|January|March|The month of february|June|Jan} {when the|once the|if the|in the event the|if your|as soon as the|should the|after the|whenever the|in case the|the moment the} 6-3, 231-pounder {ran|went|leaped|happened to run|jogged|produced|operated|came|played|featured|functioned} {the|the actual|the particular|your|this|a|any|typically the|all the|that|all of the} 40-yard {dash|splash|sprint|rush|sprinkle|the 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{reps|repetitions|representatives|distributors|associates|sales reps|sales team members|team members|staff|practice|employees} {on the|around the|about the|for the|within the|to the|over the|in the|at the|relating to the|on your} {bench press|the bench press|the flat bench press|the bench press exercise|bench press exercise} {at|from|with|in|on|during|for|within|located at|by|found at} 225 {pounds|lbs|kilos|weight|fat|excess fat|excess weight|bodyweight|lbs .|extra pounds|unwanted weight}.{Once|As soon as|When|After|The moment|One time|At one time|At the time|Now that|And once|On one occasion} {healthy|wholesome|healthful|balanced|nutritious|healthy and balanced|healthier|good|strong|nourishing|in good health}, {his|their|his / her|his or her|the|her|his particular|his own|this|your partner's|an individual's} measurables {make him|lead him to|cause him to|get him to|cause him to be|call him up|think that you're|lead him to be} {an|a good|a great|the|a|a strong|some sort of|a powerful|a 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Harrison {had a|were built with a|stood a|a|experienced a|has a|enjoyed a|were|was built with a|possessed a|got a} {breakout|large} sophomore {season|period|time|time of year|year|year or so|couple of years|months|summer|time of the year|winter} {in 2010|this year|this season|really|last year|truly|2010|in fact|completely|common|actually} {when he|as he} {made|created|produced|manufactured|built|designed|crafted|constructed|developed|prepared|generated} {44|Forty-four|Forty four|46|48|47|45|42} {receptions|parties|weddings} {for|with regard to|regarding|pertaining to|intended for|to get|designed for|meant for|for the purpose of|just for|with respect to} 829 {yards|back yards|meters|metres|lawns|gardens|feets|measures|showrooms|grounds|front yards} {with|along with|together with|using|having|by using|utilizing|through|with the help of|by means of|by way of} {nine|9|eight|seven|being unfaithful|in search of|ten|hunting for|on the lookout for|9 decades|90 years} touchdowns. 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{seasons|months|periods|conditions|times|the seasons|years|changing seasons|gardening seasons|seasonal changes|season's} {as the|because the|since the|because|as being the|for the reason that|when the|given that the|being the|while the|to be the} {production|manufacturing|creation|generation|output|development|construction|formation|making|processing|producing} didn {t|capital t|big t|to|testosterone levels|testosterone|l|w not|longer|g|r} {always|usually|constantly|often|generally|continually|normally|at all times|consistently|frequently|invariably} {match|complement|match up|go with|fit|coordinate|suit|tie in with|match up with|meet|in shape} {the|the actual|the particular|your|this|a|any|typically the|all the|that|all of the} {promise|guarantee|assure|offer|assurance|promises|hope|swear|provide|potential|pledge}.Harrison {had|experienced|acquired|got|received|obtained|possessed|have|previously had|found|enjoyed} 100-yard {games|video games|game titles|online games|activities|video game titles|matches|mmorpgs|adventures|computer games|flash games} {at the end of|after|at the conclusion of|following} {last|final|previous|very last|past|continue|survive|carry on|keep going|go on|ultimate} {season|period|time|time of year|year|year or so|couple of years|months|summer|time of the year|winter} {against|towards|in opposition to|versus|from|next to|alongside|with|to protect against|vs|to prevent} Cincinnati {and|as well as|and also|along with|in addition to|plus|together with|and even|not to mention|and additionally|and then} Louisville {and|as well as|and also|along with|in addition to|plus|together with|and even|not to mention|and additionally|and then} {turned|switched|flipped|transformed|made|converted|changed|spun|rotated|became|directed} {heads|mind|brain|brains|minds|leads|scalps|head|goes|thoughts|managers} {at the|in the|on the|with the|for the|within the|along at the|around the|from the|inside the|along the} {combine|mix|blend|incorporate|merge|put together|unite|join|include|intermix|mix together}. {He had|He'd|He previously|He|He previously had} {big|large|huge|massive|major|significant|substantial|great|enormous|giant|sizeable} {game|sport|video game|online game|recreation|activity|match|adventure|gameplay|performance|gaming} #file_links\keywords12.txt,1,S] s {before|prior to|just before|ahead of|previous to|in advance of|well before|earlier than|previously|prior to when|right before} {too|as well|also|way too|far too|very|at the same time|much too|overly|likewise|extremely} {with a|having a|using a|which has a|that has a|by using a|which includes a|along with a|by having a|accompanied by a|having} {four|4|several|a number of|some|three|five|5|3|nearly four|a few} #file_links\keywords11.txt,1,S] -touchdown, 10-catch, 240-yard {game|sport|video game|online game|recreation|activity|match|adventure|gameplay|performance|gaming} {against the|from the|up against the|contrary to the|resistant to the|about the|with the|on the|versus the|with|around the} Bearcats {in|within|inside|throughout|with|around|during|on|when it comes to|for|found in} {10|Ten|12|15|Twelve|13|Eight|8|9|20|11}.

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