Kutin vs. Yazici: not justice, but chaos prevails
29 April 2009, 15.04 CET | By Arne Moll | Filed under: Reports | Tags: ECU, Open letter, Politics
We received a letter from Ali Nihat Yazici, the President of the Turkish Chess Federation, concerning a recent arbitration in the court of Lausanne about an organizing dispute between the European Chess Union and the Turkish Chess Federation. Yazici’s letter speaks of justice, but to us, it seems only chaos prevails. A down-to-earth perspective is badly needed.
To be honest, here at ChessVibes we had already completely forgotten about the case, which was filed back in October 2007. Reading articles with so many abbreviations also didn’t help getting us into the case, which was basically about the rights of the Turkish Federation to hold three major tournaments in Turkey:
- 2009 European Individual Chess Championship
- 2009 European Club Cup
- 2009 European Youth Championship
In August 2007, The European Chess Union (ECU) decided these events would be organized not by the Turkish Chess Federation (TCF) in Turkey, but in other countries. The 2009 European Individual Chess Championship was held in Montenegro (men) and Russia (wonen), the 2009 European Club Cup will be held in Struga, Lake Ochid, Former Republic of Yugoslavia and the 2009 European Youth Championship is scheduled to be held in Fermo, Italy. Now, the Lausanne court has apparently ruled that the results of these tournaments should be declared void. It’s important to note that this includes norms, rating gains and losses and qualifications for the World Cup 2009. Here’s Yazici’s lengthy letter:
OPEN LETTER TO ALL CHESS FEDERATIONS AND MEDIA
‘Law is just and justice prevails’
As is well known, from the open letter that was presented to the chess world on 12 October 2007, I invited Boris Kutin, the President of the European Chess Union (ECU) to resign. Together with the invitation, I also explained the reasons of the unfortunate obligation that TCF had to sue ECU in Lausanne, Switzerland.
I explained that from 24 August 2007 to 2 October 2007 we had tried to find a solution with the ECU but starting from the dear President, the majority of the ECU Board did not take our rights or reasons into consideration. This was not only the first time and not the last time that the ECU was violating our rights.
I also underlined that ECU lost objectivity in their decisions starting from 2006, since all the tournaments were being given to a group of countries from a specific geographical region, while ECU was behaving as if there was an unwritten convention that countries like Turkey, Greece and Georgia were not to be given any tournaments. As a leading national federation, the Turkish Chess Federation could not be silent against this double standard and therefore we opened a law suit against ECU.
After the letter had been published, on November 3, 2007, during the ECU General Assembly held in Crete, these issues were heavily debated during a long session and it was registered in the assembly that the decisions of the ECU were not in line with the bidding procedures and the rights of our Federation were not defended.
Our common friends tried to end the suit between the TCF and the ECU. FIDE Deputy President and the President of the Greek Chess Federation worked a lot to find a peaceful solution. I agreed with his views that these kind of problems should be resolved under the roof of FIDE through diplomacy, however the entirely consciously biased decisions against our Federation were not acceptable.
Mr.Kutin, continued his explicitly biased and hostile attitude during the ECU General Assembly in Dresden, 2008.
During the ?? Bank Atat?ºrk FIDE Women Grand Prix held between 5-20 March in ?stanbul, Mr.Makropoulos again tried to assist as a mediator between the two parties and showed enormous effort to find a compromise. The TCF accepted to conditionally drop the case, unwillingly I must add, but respecting the motto of Gens Una Sumus. However, ECU rejected these reconciliation efforts.
Actually, the inability to administer by the ECU Board was clear after the 2007 and 2008 ECU General Assemblies. ECU Board could not pass any of their propositions. Furthermore, during the 2007 Assembly the authority of the ECU Board, on deciding the organizers of annual events, was reduced by the GA and by 2008, except for the youth championships, all other events will be decided by the GA. This shows a de facto distrust of the ECU Board.
It is sure that law is just and justice prevails eventually. This was proven true once again.
After the last trial was held on 30 March 2009 in Lausanne, the court ruled for TCF with the decision taken on 22 April 2009 as their decision written in French (and our translation in English) is attached.
According to this judgement, the decisions of the ECU Board on 24 August 2007 for the three tournaments of 2009, were cancelled and became void. So those three decision given below are now void! Furthermore, it was decided that ECU should pay 6.593 CHF for legal costs to the Turkish Chess Federation as compensation. And also they will pay 3.686 CHF for the court expenses in total the amount will be 10.279 CHF.
I do not count the money we spent for the law suit, the money spent by ECU for travelling, accommodation and for lawyers in Lausanne. All those money were spent to the detriment of the chess world due to the illegal decision of ECU and their behavior of disregarding the views of one of their members. What were the decisions which were cancelled?
1. 2009 European Individual Chess Championship
2. The decision to hold 2009 European Club Cup in Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Struga.
3. The decision to hold 2009 European Youth Championship in Italy, Fermo.What are the probable consequences?
1. With the court decision regarding the European Individual Chess Championship, the European Individual Championships held in Montenegro and Russia for men and women respectively are both void. Any of the players that participated and qualified from those events cannot play in the World Cup (that is the opinion after consulting lawyers). Those tournaments should be held in 2009 again! ECU is responsible for all the expenses of those events spent by players and organizers. FIDE, as the body controlling the World Championship cycle, should convene quickly and decide about it. It is an absolute mess now.
2. ECU decision to “legally” hold the European Club Cup 2009 is also cancelled. A new bid procedure should immediately start for the organization of this event. Until 2007, ECU Board was the deciding body about the incoming bids but now ECU General Assembly should convene as soon as possible with a new bidding procedure to decide for this event.
3. The ECU Board’s decision taken on 24 August 2007 to hold European Youth Championship also cannot be hold in this country without a new decision. Since the event is being planned to be held in August, the bidding process should restart immediately and a new organizer should be determined.
This is only the beginning. ECU President has created a real mess in the chess world, despite our and all other intermediaries’ suggestions. This issue is not about losing one or three events, but we will resume our struggle until the decisions are taken lawfully according to the procedures, since our rights were unlawfully violated.
We immediately invite all of the ECU Board starting with Mr.Boris Kutin to resign and believe that is the time to convene immediately an Extraordinary General Assembly with elections.
We are proposing following:
- All the ECU board must resign. We know that some members of the board did their best to persuade the President but they could not change his rigid opinion. However, considering that the decision belongs to all board, we ask them all to resign.
- Turkey is ready to organize an extraordinary ECU GA in Istanbul in order temporary to elect a new President and board members until the next ECU GA in 2010 in Khanty-Mansiysk
- TCF is ready to do everything possible to help in the negotiation between all affected parties to find right solutions to avoid serious problems which we are facing today.
It is the time that ECU should be administered in the right hands.
It is time to stop this bad situation. European chess needs a much better leader than dear current president.
This board, which could not manage to find any sponsor, nor achieved any corporate success so far in great and important continent like Europe could only organize events thanks to the FIDE’s granted rights that enabled them to raise money by entrance fees, which is probably paid to the President and to the General Secretary.
I invite my honorable friends in the ECU Board to resign. Please resign and let’s convene the General Assembly.
Gens Una Sumus
Ali Nihat YAZICI
President
Turkish Chess Federation
Quite apart from the court’s decision (in French, English translation by the Turks here), it seems to us that Yazici’s letter misses the mark on several points. First of all, the focus of the letter is on the proposed resignation of Kutin and the rest of the ECU board. This request is made no less than four times, which to us suggests a personal element that this situation can really do without for now. Secondly, the suggestion that Turkey is willing to host the replacing tournaments is definitely nice-to-know, but no more than that: surely there are many more countries which would like to host such events. Third, the assertion that ‘law is just and justice prevails’ is opportunistic at best, not to say tasteless.
What’s most important is not what happens to Kutin, the TCF or any other federation, but what happens to those who suffer most from all this – the players. Yazici is completely silent on this fact, but so is the ECU, whose website is a blank about the whole affair.
It’s about time that shameless examples of chess politics like this come to an end. There seem to be no winners in this case – only losers. The result: total chaos and anarchy – a long way from justice indeed.
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Notice that Mr. Yazici speaks of “probable consequences”. Probable according to who? According to his wishful thinking and delusions of grandeur. There is I would say basically no chance that FIDE will cancel the results of the European Championships on the basis of this decision of the TAS. Is Ivanchuk suspended for two years? No. FIDE is not an organization run by the rule of law, for better or for worse, but by fiat. This decision will change nothing in the world of chess, apart from panicking a few people who take open letters from braggarts too seriously.
“As a leading national federation, the Turkish Chess Federation could not be silent …”
Leading national federation based on what? Average elo? Number of grandmasters?
“the assertion that ‚Äòlaw is just and justice prevails‚Äô is opportunistic at best, not to say tasteless. ”
I agree (with the whole sentence), and even more tasteless and arrogant is signing the letter with “Gens una sumus”.
“What‚Äôs most important is … what happens to those who suffer most from all this – the players. Yazici is completely silent on this fact, but so is the ECU.”
Yazici is NOT silent – see item 1 of his “probable” [sic] consequences. Here I only agree with the last sentence: “It is an absolute mess now”.
And as I wrote before, the European Chess Union presumably needs some time to read and interpret the court’s motivation for the decision, and decide on further steps. Wholly plausible and nothing wrong with that in my opinion … .
I find the conclusion of this piece rather strange.
first of all; resignation of people who do their job badly is very important-that would be good for the players affected by their bad decisions. Why is it a problem to mention that?
Secondly; like the author says; it is nice to know (IF) they want to organize the events. So, what is the problem mentioning it then? The author seems to suggest that they should keep there mouth shut because there might be other countries/federations interested. The letter states that new bidding procedures should start. So no problem there.
Thirdly: The sentence that law and justice prevail is indeed a bit cocky-but since a court backed them on this it is by general standards the truth.
Once again, this looks like a journalist making a big deal out of something small just to fill the space. Crying about chess politics is easy. Giving solutions is not. Maybe mr Yazici is right. Some people should resign in order to solve the problem.
My conclusion; The letter is certainly not more “opportunistic and tasteless” than the above piece of journalism.
Jean Michel:
“There is I would say basically no chance that FIDE will cancel the results of the European Championships on the basis of this decision of the TAS.”
I wouldn’t be too sure. Isn’t Yazici the FIDE vice-president? A very strange situation: FIDE seemed to accept qualifications from the European championships and now one of its dignitaries says the opposite. Mr. Yazici seems to have trouble wearing two different caps, as we say in Dutch.
So, mr. Yazici, to avoid conflicting loyalties, shouldn’t you, eh… resign?
@S: Maybe I am missing something … essential information such as the court’s motivation and justification for the decision is not (yet) available, BUT …
“resignation of people who do their job badly is very important”
I would agree, if I knew what exactly the ECU board and particularly Boris Kutin have done wrong.
Yet for the time being, I can only point out what others have done wrong – in my opinion and using my common sense:
The court (even if the decision is justified):
- delaying it for that long, until after the European championship
- and even if the decision is ‘correct’, wouldn’t it be sufficient to impose financial compensation for the Turkish federation, plus a guarantee to organize the next such event?
Ali Yazici
- putting personal and/or (perceived) national interests above those of the players
And what did Arne Moll do wrong? Nothing IMO, he reported the facts and gave his own opinion.
. And do you mean to imply that the entire story is _not at all_ newsworthy?
In any case:
“a journalist making a big deal out of something small just to fill the space”
Ask the players involved if they consider this ’something small’
And what’s next? If most GM’s decide to boycot the “European championship revival” (which I would understand), will we end up with 10 Turkish players qualifying for the World Cup, plus ten others rated 2200-2400??
Arrogant behaviour by Yazici, he should be fined by the FIDE ethics commission.
cancelling or voiding completed tournaments, victors, rating changes, norms and qualified candidates of World Cup should be illegal. it should definitely be discourage and any idiot/asshole trumpeting the notion of this precedent should be ostracized.
@S. We’re not saying mr. Yazici is wrong – he has the court on his side, after all – but it’s the triumphant tone and the extreme emphasis that he puts on Kutin’s resignation (mentioning it time after time) instead of on the people who’ve been duped, that make the letter lose all credibility.
Jean-Michel, this wasn’t a decision of the TAS (or CAS in English), it was an ordinary civil court. Maybe this is indeed a matter for the TAS/CAS, though!
By the way, I’m really amazed by the decision, partly because of its inexplicable vagueness. Were the jugdes even aware that the European Championship has already taken place?
@thomas; you can blame the court for the (late) decision.
But the ECU board made some wrong decisions according to this court. It is not strange that the suing party wants some repercussions after it won. Apart from the tone the letter is not that bad:
It tells us that the court has made a decision and what the decision is, it tells us about the implications and it suggests actions to be taken based on the ruling of the court -resignation of the ones responsible and starting new bidding procedures asap for certain events.
Seems like a good thing to me.
This letter is dismissed on account of three ‘points”:
that there is a “personal”element why people responsible for proven errors should resign,
that Turkey is willing to organize events and because of the tone of “justice prevails”is bad (the latter being part of argument no 1 btw).
I don’t see those things as bad, and certainly not a reason to dismiss the letter as tasteless or opportunistic. Neither is there chaos-the letter informs us very clear of certain things and proposes to solve the remaining questions asap.
I would also like to emphasise this quote:
“TCF is ready to do everything possible to help in the negotiation between all affected parties to find right solutions to avoid serious broblems”
That includes players and federations, wouldn’t you say?
Last but not least, this “personal element” (what does the writer have in mind with that anyway?)has not been proven at all. And it’s a serious thing to say.
The letter is certainly newsworthy, but the negative commentary is in my opinion unjustified.
@ Arne I see your point;
but if law would require that the ECH should be re-played I would like to get rid of the ones responsible too. It’s very important that incompetent leaders should be removed and be taken accountable.
“‚ÄúTCF is ready to do everything possible to help in the negotiation between all affected parties to find right solutions to avoid serious broblems”
I think the turkish federation may be open to have the results of ECH remaining valid.
But I am no lawyer and maybe that is not possible at all because of this verdict?
Turkey must be expelled from European Chess Federation – the only way for our chess to get rid of these barbarians.
@S: Your unconditional support for Ali Yazici is essentially based on the assumption that the Lausanne court decision is final and necessarily correct beyond any doubt.
Interesting to follow your choice of words … : first you state “some wrong decisions _according to this court_” [that's still 'acceptable' for me], then you simply call it “proven [sic] errors”. It is already worthwhile mentioning that an appeal against the decision is still possible …. .
On your other point:
“I think the turkish federation may be open to have the results of ECH remaining valid.”
Then why-o-why does he [Yazici] or do they ’scream out’ that loudly that the European Championship “hasn’t taken place at all” (that’s what it comes down to …)? In other words, what would they expect from ‘other affected parties’ in return during the proposed ‘negotiations’ in order to give in on that point? Resignation of the entire ECU board, that’s clear enough, anything else, anything more??
BTW, it is also interesting to check the earlier part of the story (Chessbase links to the earlier documents from October 2007). Here, Turkey [Yazici] complains that they don’t get to organize major events, and at the same time proudly mentions how many such events they already organized !!?? Maybe ECU simply concluded that other countries/federations should also gget their turn? Similarly, Elista by now only gets to organize chess events if noone, really noone else is interested …. .
And one more thing: In the meantime the ECU has posted an initial reaction on their website (see link in the article above). I will cite only the final sentence (bold in the original source):
“The ECU Board would like to point out that the judgment has not yet become final and absolute.”
Calling a country and the people living in that country “barbarian” is a perfectly civilian and the most relevant way to pursue a “civilian” discussion. I am not a law expert but the decision is final but the way to lodge an appeal is open. By the way according to the earlier reports on chessbase, I think the procedural error was the claim of the Turkish federation.
First of all, Gregoriy, I’m amazed about your refreshing insights. Maybe you should call upon all the fighters in enlightened Western European countries like England, France, Sapin, The Netherlands or Germany, which of course never have strived for empire or are guilty of genocide, to convene and lay siege to the walls of Constantinople. (Or do you prefer Byzantium? Of course Constantine was just some Serbian upstart.) By the way, I hope you are not Greek, because what was that fag Alexander doing in India?
Secondly, but (sorry, Gregoriy) more importantly, I again (well, I am a personally bit disappointed that no one picks it up, but I would say that it is extremely relevant) want to stress that mr. Yazici is not just president of the Turkish Chess Federation but also vice president of FIDE.
I would like to know what exactly is going on here. Is this a personal thing between mr. Yazici and mr. Kutin? Has the ECU stepped out of (FIDE) line? Is mr. Yazici speaking on behalf of the TCF or the FIDE, or maybe even the chess players concerned, when he says: “ECU is responsible for all the expenses of those events spent by players and organizers”? Finally, was this law suit supported by FIDE? Is mr. Yazici representing a FIDE point of view here? If not, what is the FIDE point of view on the court verdict, and on the role of its vice president?
To my surprise, the Association of Chess Professional hasn’t reacted yet. View the site, it looks that they are more concerned about how much lipstick a woman can eat, but maybe they are still thinking it over.
@ Michael: Thanks for clearing that up. I thought the TAS would be the only court with any kind of jurisdiction in a case like that, but I shouldn’t have assumed without checking.
@ Frits: Oops, well if My Yacizi is indeed part of the FIDE inner circle, then all bets are off. Organisations that are run by fiat delight in draping themselves in the law when it happens to be on their side, while throwing it into the dustbin on other occasions. Thanks for that little nugget of information I had missed.
This is great! Finally an international chess organisation gets a verdict for not following decisions of their General Assemblies, irregularities in their bidding procedures and favouritism towards special nations. Now we can not wait to see someone sueing FIDE.
But I do not hope that the courts verdict, that the three by Yaciki mentioned “decisions” are void. means that these tournaments, some scheduled in the near future and already arranged in detail, will be cancelled. Personally I know players who are looking forward to them and already have arranged travels aso..The world can not be that crazy.
But of course Kutin should resign. As Kirsan should have done a long time ago.
Yazici is such a phony!
1. In his letter/article he claims he has nothing personal with Kutin and to convince us he says he voted for doubling their pay at one point/with one occasion. So what? Isn’t that just destroying his whole argument? Why would someone double the pay of some leaders who he claims they are basically incompetent? It just doesn’t make any sense. Of course Yazici and Kutin hate each other and see this whole thing now as a chess game between themselves – hence the calls for ‘resignation’ and all. I don’t understand why Yazici took such an arrogant position and in the same time a fake one – pretending he doesn’t have anything personal with Kutin. Of course he has. And Kutin has with him. That’s the egoes of chess related people clashing. It would have been much better for Yazici to actually just deliver for publication a brief announcement of the court’s decision and that’s all. Don’t insult the readers and the chess community at large by such pompous, arrogant and extemely aggressive calls for resignations and reform. Turkey is not the only country in Europe/related to Europe that has potential to organize good quality events. Even a small city in Czech Republic or North Italy can do an equally impressive job and players would enjoy it – as it has been proven with some occasions.
2. Just because Yazici has some influence in FIDE and has a flow of cash in Turkey’s chess that doesn’t mean that everybody must bow down to him and resign because he calls for it. While this impetus for taking over leading roles in chess organization is often to be praised, I feel that he should work harder to help other federations reach a similar level if he is so concerned about the future of chess and not – egoistically – claiming all important events to be played in Turkey. No matter how great Turkey can be as a country (some parts of it), what’s the point of having series of events in only one country. Is Istanbul the new Elista? Didn’t chess players learn their lessons with so many years of Kirsan’s “geopolitics”?
3. Yazici acts like he is an European by birth or his country has aided the European effort for centuries. Turkey is not even a full member of EU yet and the negotiations for its inclusion have nothing to do with a shared European-based culture or system of values: it’s mainly a strategic/military/security issue – otherwise Turkey is a very different land/culture than the rest of Europe. Plus, Turks/Ottoman Empire has been assaulting Europe since the 14th century until the 19th when they were finally broken down. What gives the Turks the moral rights and civilizational attributes to actually decide on European matter (even chess matters at that)? They should be actually happy that their geographical position aids their case (economically and militarily) and they should be more humble when dealing with European forums. The one who’s loudest in the room, is the weakest. Yazici only proves his need for further successes, for him and his country and not for the chess world at large or for the European chess community in particular. The calls for cancellations of the European championships just played proves such a point. He’s ready to step over the interests of European chess players just to get his advantage materialized, Kutin expelled and a new EU board elected (probably with Yazici leading it or influencing it). That’s the extent the Turkish effort to gain EU scoring-points has amounted to. Pathetic tone, pathetic letter and chessvibes.com did a great thing by providing some journalistic criticism right there. Way to go, boys.
Marlowe,
I share your views that Yazici has done a lot to promote Turkish chess and that it’s basically a good thing that he brings his ambition to a broader forum, but that it seems he has lost control of his actions.
But your third point contaminates the discussion. What the hell is a “shared European-based culture or system of values”? That all those little countries knocked each others head in for the last 1600 years and don’t want outsiders to mix in? I doubt if I share much of your culture or system of values.
Frits:
You may have a point. Cultural arguments have no place in the matter perhaps. But I feel that a European organization should be made of European countries not Asian countries like Turkey. That’s all.
Of course, in my view, part of the blame for Turkey’s vague status in this respect (European or Asian country?!) is EU forums themselves (some of the members wanting to treat Turkey as an European entity for their security fears vis-a-vis the arab world).
What I meant by sistem of values and culture is the fact that Western/Central (and in a much lesser degree even parts of Eastern) Europe has a very different mentality in doing and organizing things, while the Balkan/Turkish mentality is enormously different by comparison. Thus as a citizen of EU, I’d like the ECU GAs and meetings to be kept in Madrid, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Budapest, Rome, Berlin…damn, even Sofia or Bucharest, but not in Istanbul or Tbilisi. These countries are NOT European. They should form their own regional chess unions or whatever they feel like having and stay away from trying to hijack and decide matters for ALL Europeans. And while at it, to pretend they are doing it not because of personal interests or national agendas, but because for the sake of higher chess standards for all chess players and similar bullshit. Enough propaganda crap – stick to being real and you don’t have to beg someone to resign for years – you’ll be elected for your own merits and for your own struggle if the members of that organization really want it or they feel you have a solid contribution to the common [not only Turkish] good. That’s the whole point.
Once again …. : Let’s separate Yazici’s ego trip from wider (non-chessic) issues such as whether Turkey should join the EU, or ancient history as the Ottoman Empire. BTW, Yazici claims that other countries (Greece and Georgia) were also discriminated.
@Jens Kristiansen: What exactly are you referring to in your first sentence? In my opinion, Yazici is not necessarily right just because he makes a lot of noise, uses strong language and is backed up by an ‘obscure’ Swiss court. Disclaimer: my last statement is not anti-Swiss, I only wonder why this particular court gets to decide on issues affecting all of Europe … .
Being a noob in chesspolitics, I can only say that if any board which gets such a verdict against it should resign immdiately on pragmatic grounds
No way a longrunning dispute like this, obviousely terribly misjudged -pun intended- by this board, is going to be same guys responsable for it. Once your in the courthouse all hope is lost.
- if
+ solved by
cool show!
I vote for more law suits. especially cool are binding decisions, that have exponential effects, such as declaring tournament results void, which influence future tourneys.
also personal conflicts fought out over the net are nice. what is missing is a sexy female official, who spices it up a bit.
Thomas: Read the very recent ChessVibes-article on the K-factor. And there are other stories as well…
Kutin should resign.
He takes money from the national federations with all kind of tricks and he gambles too much in the casino.
Kutin vs. Yazici – Chessvibes Take…
Since my fellow blogger Arne Moll from Chessvibes has a somewhat differing opinion of the Yazici open letter I thought I’d better bridge the gap to help others make sense of what is going on. Let me bullet this if I can:
1. Yazici and the Turkish F…
Marlowe: I haven’t read such a pathetic piece of comment like yours in months; I would like to congratulate you for that. You made my day! Honestly!
So, according to your European values, if you are Asian (whatever it means), even if you have been treated unfairly, shut up and do not raise your voice. Remember my racist friend! The verdict has been made by a court just in the very middle of Europe, not by an institution a few hundred meters away from Yazici’s home… Why is it always the case that whenever Turkey’s name is mentioned, even in the most unrelated issues, its EU bid is brought up to the discussion? I guess I know the answer… But, anyway…
Sulo: The European system/values was brought up because of Yazici’s arrogant tone and phony arguments. If you are not an European but you are an Asian, you’re welcome in Europe and have all the liberty in the world to do whatever you feel like doing, no problem there, so you’re wrong on that. My argument was that a country that doesn’t have full EU status yet, has no legal rights to affect or interfere in European related matters or EU institutions, “European” meant as related to the welfare of ALL European members. Other countries worked hard to achieve the EU status and enjoy the priviliges. I fail to see why Turkey should enjoy them before being awarded with the status of a EU full member.
And don’t kid yourself: Yazici’s position in Turkey has very much to do with EU-intergration politics itself – the government supports chess and his schemes there also because it gives well on the application/bid file. So that’s just another phony approach that politics or EU-bid has nothing to do with it. Get real, man.
As for your racism accusation: apparently all EU members are racist to you because they formed an union to protect their interests and regional welfare? I got nothing against Turkish as a nation. I got some disgust for some Turkish self-elevated chess politicians who use Yazici’s tone and self-promotion but hide under the mantle of “common good”. That’s despicable and it’s typical political bullshit. My reaction would have been just the same if some other EU country chess politician would have raised the matter in the same way.
And one piece of advice….drop the “friend” segment from your message…makes you sound so much like…Yazici — “I ask my dear friends to resign”….Peace.
I just posted something similar at Dailydirt, but it also fits into the discussion here: It is, in my opinion, completely irrelevant for this discussion whether Turkey is, should be or should become part of Europe based on geographic, political, economic, cultural, historical … considerations. It is even more irrelevant whether Turkey wants to, should or shouldn’t, will or won’t join the European Union – be it only because some “100% European” countries (e.g. Norway and Switzerland) are not part of the EU [their own choice as far as I know].
Stating what should be obvious: The whole issue is about chess. In chess and other sports, Turkey is “officially” part of Europe, just like several other countries: all ex-Soviet Caucasian countries, Russia (including all of Siberia), even Israel. Like it or not, understand it or not, it is a simple fact.
This stands loose from my personal opinion about Yazici’s letter and the court decision which I have given before.
@ Jens Kristiansen: Admittedly I don’t have time to read and understand the intricacies of the K-factor discussion (it isn’t first on my list). But I don’t see how/why this is AT ALL relevant to the present discussion. And I certainly hope that this other issue will not be decided in court …. .
Please stop it! How did this discussion got out of hand in this way? I would not say some of you are using racistic arguments, but you do argue culturalisticly, which is almost the same nowadays.
I fail to see that Yazici is using “phony” arguments, but you could say he is using an “arrogant” tone – almost as arrogant as many “western” politicians acting on these so called “western values”, what ever they may be. So I guess many of you have a busy time nowadays, if you overfocus on the form in stead of the content of political arguments.
The bottom line to me in this matter: It is positive that you finally gain something from sueing these imcompetent chess organisations and organisers.
And I would like to add that it had made me very glad to see the almost explosive growth of chess culture in Turkey in the last decade. And I guess Yazici can hold some of the honour for that.
And then an important, concrete question: What happens to the scheduled an already in details arranged EU-Ch for clubs and juniors? Personally I know players who have already made arrangements for their participations. I can not believe the chess world is that crazy that these events will be cancelled? Or?
Guys, let’s please not go into a discussion of Europe vs. Asia – we really don’t live in the Bronze Age anymore, do we?
Jens, I agree with your first paragraph. Just a hypothetical question: What kind of discussion would have developed if Yaznici wasn’t Turkish, but, say, French, British or Danish? Or – assuming he was German – would some people mention Hitler, Holocaust and World War II?? I would consider this (just as) completely absurd [not only because I am German myself].
”
But here the agreement basically ends:
“I fail to see that Yazici is using ‚Äúphony‚Äù arguments …”
Actually I do agree, but this is because I fail to see tangible arguments altogether.
“It is positive that you finally gain something from sueing these imcompetent chess organisations”
What is actually gained? Yaznici’s name is more widely known, anything else? Or will Turkey get to organize all events they are bidding for in the future? Because whenever their bid is not successful, Yaznici goes to court … .
“What happens to the scheduled an already in details arranged EU-Ch for clubs and juniors?”
Who knows? But at the limit, cancelling an event before it starts (or rather postponing it/moving it to another presently unknown venue) isn’t worse than cancelling the European championship _after_ it has already been played. And in both cases, one cannot blame “the chess world”, but again mostly Yaznici and the Swiss court.
Bottom line: I still don’t approve Yaznici’s course of actions, but it is irrelevant to me that he is Turkish, and whether Turkey should be considered part of Europe and should be allowed to join the EU. And for my personal opinion it is also at most marginally relevant that he was successful in court.
Thomas: To quote from Yazici¬¥s letter: “…during the ECU General Assembly held in Crete, these issues were heavily debated during a long session and it was registered in the assembly that the decisions of the ECU were not in line with the bidding procedures and the rights of our Federation were not defended.”
I can not see that as a “phony” argument, or a nontangible argument at all.
And what is gained from the Cours decision? Well, maybe Kutin will resign, sooner or later. But at least we have ganied presendence – you can not get away with anything as a chess organisation. And that is something, after all.
Maybe you dont approve of Yazici´s actions, but he has of course every right to bring the matter to court. And I suppose the court in Lausanne would have rejected his case if it was completely silly and irrelevant.
And I still hope that the EU Ch´s in Struga and Fermo will go on as scheduled. In fact I would like to know Yazici´s opinion on that.
Jens: The man who called for cancellations of these events and the recently played European Men’s and Womens’s is no one other by Yazici himself. So it is not the chess world who demands their cancellations and it’s not the chess world who has symptoms of insanity. The responsability falls on the guy who asked for these really unreasonable solution and on a idiotic court who failed to understand what that means to the chess players who have absolutely no fault for chess politicians’s incompetence, feuds and rivalries. Yet, they get punished, stripped off medals. Because Yazici won in court and he asked for it.
Marlowe: OK, I give in on that. In Yazici¬¥s answer to the rethoric question: “What are the probable consequences?”, he is rather harsh, not to say extreme, and his solutions are not only unreasonable, but also completely unrealistic. It seems that he is the kind of guy who gets carried away by his succeses, which in this case maybe came unexpectedly to him.
But I still believe he has a just cause, and at least his letter, how ever exaggerated in its proposals, shows us what kind of mess the chess world can end up in, if these matters are not tightened up.
And NOW it is high time that some clever chess journalist – maybe from Chess-Vibes? – asks Yazici if he really means that all the mentioned chesstournaments should be cancelled and/or their results made void. And you may start by congratulating him for the victory at court.
Thanks, Jens.
Someone should ask him indeed.
Will be curious to see his answers because as a leading chess federation/chess official he has the responsability to be…well…reasonable and truly in the benefit of chess players. Something that his letter was not. His letter to the public was like a kid’s revenge not – ‘I told you I am gonna get ya!’ – type and his radical demands are just part of a strategy to force/intimidate the ECU leadership. Him and TCF evidently try to extract as much as he, as soon as he can from the court’s first ruling. Personally, I believe even himself doesn’t really believe in the practicality of some of those insane demands (except for Kutin’s resignation). He threw them out there to highlight the case, rally support and show the issue is dead serious. Also if the ECU leaders chicken out from the fight, he got all what he asked for. But that’s exactly why his letter was disturbing: because he plays politics wihout any consideration for chess players involved. A proper high level servant of our chess bodies would have started by apologizing for the emotional discomfort the whole episode tends to create to the European players involved in the recent events. My feeling is just that TCF prestige, money, FIDE and personal sagas or rivalry eclipse his humanity. He is just another FIDE official – what do we except really. That’s the standard of those who got elected.
As a person who is originally from Turkey but right now lives in the US, I just want to assure you that 99.9% of the Turkish population would not recognize Yazici if they saw him walking in the street (including the Prime Minister, I BET), and even that population would not know that Turkey has a Chess Federation… It is so much a good feeling that Turkey is taking very positive steps in spreading the chess ambition to nation-wide (via local and global organizations) but it is still in a very narrow circle that chess is regularly and ambitiously played, and probably it will take such a long time for a considerable portion of the whole population to maintain a certain interest on chess… If you guys still believe that ‘barbarians’ should stay away from chess, I don’t have much to say. But please do not bring up that ‘EU accession’ card here and there whenever Turkey’s name is mentioned because it is totally unrelated… The citizens of, say, the Netherlands, Austria or Sweden will not vote for Turkey when the EU accession comes to the decision point because its Chess federation will have organized so many events (I bet Marlowe is right now saying to himself “Of course we will not for any reason!”); that is such a ridiculous way of thinking (and arguing)! Lastly, I just want to remind you of the fact that the UEFA Cup Final will be hosted in Istanbul in three weeks (most likely between Hamburger (Germany) vs. Shaktar Donetsk (Ukraine)) as the Champions League Final was done in 2005 (between Liverpool vs. AC Milan), and Istanbul will be the European Capital of Culture in 2010 (I am sorry, Marlowe; but your European fellows made the decision and assigned it to Istanbul!). Again and again: Thinking that Turkey will change European citizens’ minds about its EU accession by means of organizing global chess events is silly, indeed quite silly (And according to me, nothing would change European citizens as long as they consider any other culture inferior to their own one)… Please do not mix the court’s decision (which I find very confusing) with the EU politics or anything!
I tried to do some ground-truthing whether Yazici’s claim that Turkey (and Greece) were neglected when it comes to organizing tournaments, here are the “surprising” results [source: Wikipedia for individual championships, Olimpbase.org for the European Club Cup]. I start from 2000 for a total of 40 tournaments (taking men’s and women’s championships separately, while they were sometimes held together at the same location).
European Chess Championships (men and women): Turkey 5*, Germany 3*, Bulgaria 2*, Poland 2* [plus various countries organizing one tournament]
European Youth Championships: maybe a bit strange that Montenegro (formerly as part of Serbia) got to organize 4 events, but Turkey also had 1, and Greece 2
European Club Cup: 4* Greece, 2* Turkey
So altogether Turkey had 8 events out of 40, Greece had 6. And in terms of travel expenses and logistics it is not that irrelevant that both countries are at the periphery of Europe – here I would make the same remark if numerous events were organized in Portugal or (Northern) Norway … .
True, Yaznici refers to the period since 2006 – but in terms of equal justice to all potential organizing countries the longer-term context also matters!? Likewise, Istanbul got to organize the Chess Olympiad in 2000 and again in 2012 – also no (or positive) discrimination!?
First sentence should of course read: “whether Yaznici’s claim … is justified”
You are complainig about Yazici, but according to the decision, it’s ECU’s fault, not the TCF who defended its rights, that there is this mess now. ECU board violates the rules and should resign. The rumours are, there is a group of people, that let all the profit-making tournaments organize in the Balkan/Greece, noone else has a chance. Last year the ECC should be on the Crete in the beginning of October. After winnning the bid, it was transfered to colder Thessaloniki and colder date (middle of October). So conditions were much worse, prices very high – who stays out of the official expensive hotels (and the season is usually over!) pays ‚Ǩ100 of compensation to the organizers etc… It’’s really a time for change.
Jens Kristiansen: It is NOT being unsuccessful it is about suing unlawful process of bidding. The decisions were claimed to be taken unlawfully.
I think you should not blame Yaz?c? or the Swiss court but rather ECU and Kutin who give unlawful decisions which was already approved by the court.
It is not a matter of Yazici promoting himself and Turkey but rather protecting Turkey from unlawful actions of ECU. Why are in defence of being unlawful? Isn’t not allowing unlawful actions part of the “European culture”??
Marlowe: It is quite lame to think that promoting chess under the government support is part of influencing European citizen’s mind by organizing global chess events, since chess world is very microscopic portion and the problem is not about being modern or having modern practices but rather cultural so I agree with Sulo. EU politics and Turkey is entirely a different stuff and you should definitely know more about Turkey the conditions and agenda rapidly change in the country.
Thomas: ” And in terms of travel expenses and logistics it is not that irrelevant that both countries are at the periphery of Europe – here I would make the same remark if numerous events were organized in Portugal or (Northern) Norway ‚Ķ .”
Generally in terms of living conditions Greece and Turkey are relatively cheaper than most countries around Europe so it is less costly to participate a tournament in Turkey or Greece . Yes, Turkey organized a lot of international tournaments but that is only because they are successfuly organized. Therefore, I do not see any problem in recurrently organizing events around Turkey and Turkey’s agressive apprach to organize chess tournaments.
Please note that in the past years Greece and Turkey are generally more active in bidding procedures than the countries around western Europe because these two countries can find more sponsors for chess to organize middle or large scale international tournaments. Or you can say Russia and Elista also can find more support since FIDE President is the head of the state in Kalymkia and the president of the Russian Chess Federation is the vice prime minister! It is coming down to finding support for chess!
@A Barbarian Turk: You are a defender of the status-quo. “It is coming down to finding support for chess”. That’s FIDE policy who got us where we are in the first place. The elected officials were elected to FIND support for chess. They failed? Why are they still in office then? Because after they keep failing, they strengthened their own base/country by providing the perfect excuse: oh…we couldn’t find sponsors elsewhere…let’s do it in our country (Georgia, Turkey, Kalmykia)…oh, the conditions are bad elsewhere…we can provide better. etc. Those people in FIDE who hold an office and are responsible for finding sponsors should have resigned long ago. According to your logic: let’s have then ALL chess tournaments to Turkey, Georgia and Elista because it’s cheaper and there is support for chess there! Great job. Super exciting and super strong effort for keeping up the standards of this game’s image.
@ laywer: “colder place, colder dates”…please….what that has to do with anything? As long as there is a heater, proper prizes, excellent hotel conditions, decent organizatoric effort chess players don’t care about that. You sound like one of those chess bidding officials with a hotter country and with an interest to have an event between certain dates.
The heart of the matter is that “cheaper places” won’t get you the needed exposure to highlight the game’s image and better it. A leading event organized in the stepes of Kalmykia or in the same old, same old Turkish resort is not the same with the same event organized in New York, Paris, London, Berlin etc. The problem is that FIDE is complacent because they have an express interest in organizing events exactly in those “cheaper places”. They just hide it behind the formula “we can’t find sponsors in other places”. When that is true, there’s a good reason why sponsors won’t hand it hundreds of thousand of $ to organizers who can’t fullfil their contractual terms and have a lousy reputation!
“Barbarian Turk”, I largely agree with you. The fact that Turkey got to organize lots of tournaments in the recent past is obviously because
1) they were more active in bidding,
2) earlier tournaments were well organized, and venues were attractive.
Indeed, “attractive venues” may be part of the reason why they could find sponsors more easily? It may well be a win-win situation: Mediterranean holiday resorts are partly empty out of season, holding a tournament there means additional publicity – chess journalists will also show photos of the venue, and report on touristic acticities during the rest days … .
So far so good, and players, coaches, journalists … will hardly ever say “not again the Turkish Riviera” while quite a few are likely to complain “not again Elista or Khanty-Mansysk”. So I still agree when you write “I do not see any problem in recurrently organizing events around Turkey”.
However, Yaznici seems to deduce an automatic right to hold events in the future because Turkey did so in the past, so I repeat my conclusion from yesterday evening: Getting to organize 20% of all events over the past decade is no (or positive) discrimination. And I mentioned Portugal and Norway only to make clear that my point doesn’t have anything to do with the discussion if Turkey is part of Europe or not.
If I can remember it right, Turkey bidded more events, got one (and not a very profitable) and the ECU Board decided illegally that Turkey is automatically out of the other more profitable bids. It’s no problem to have a rule, that one country can got only one tournament, but it would be fair to know this beforehand and not after the bids were prepared (and paid).
Now we are (finally) coming to essential aspects. Chessbase has a link to the pdf of Yaznici’s initial open letter (referred to in his current press release) – 8 pages full of arrogant [or aggressive] language, my attempt to summarize why TCF ‘unfortunately had to sue FIDE’:
1) Yes, they bidded for all three events, somehow expecting they would get all of them. At the very least, IMO they should have clarified that this concerns an “all-or-nothing package deal”. As lawyer said, he has no problem with the rule “no more than one tournament in one country”, but (in line with Yaznici) states that it’s “illegal” if it is not announced beforehand. Yet I would say ECU would lose ‘reasonable flexibility’ if they make such a prior announcement. Imagine one country had clearly the strongest bid for several events – in that situation it would still out of necessity lose out in one (or two) cases. Because otherwise a competitor would clearly have a valid argument to challenge the decision in court … .
I would even argue that it makes sense to give the more profitable events to ‘poorer’ federations – provided they come up with a comparably strong bid. Admittedly, a possible counterargument would be “Why should the TCF be punished for its own success?”.
2) They did not get to see the other competing bids: “Also we do not understand why the bids presented in Novi Sad are hidden. This is against the
basic logic of public tenders in Europe.”
I was marginally involved (sort of freelance assistance) in some commercial European tenders [no need to give details]. We never got to see the competing bids – as they contain sensitive information which the potential customer wants to/needs to know, but which you do not want to share with your competitors. So at least in a general sense, Yaznici’s statement is simply wrong.
BTW, at one occasion we were informally told that the contract would probably go to our competitor, because we had been successful several times before in the same country. This was (wisely) not mentioned in the subsequent decision letter, as it is an argument which may not hold in court …. still in my opinion it makes at least a bit of sense.
Thomas – If the TCF knew it beforehand, they could bid (and with even better conditions) only the tournament they wanted the most. But as I see it, they sent more bids, the ECU board had chosen them one (perhaps the least profitable?) and the other devided among its friends. I still can imagine the one country=one tournament rule if there is enough interest to organize these events elsewhere – its better for wider chess promotion worldwide.
Marlowe – the problem are the proper prizes and the bidding process. After winnig the bid, they changed the conditions (date and place) to worse ones. The original conditions could be set only to be able to win the bid (argument – the warm sea will lure more strong players and teams atc.). The prizes are far from proper if its after the season (sea is cold, there are only chess-players remaining). I think it’s not usual in other sports, that staying out of the official hotel is fined with 100‚Ǩ. If such conditions are confirmed by ECU board, I think it’s not for the good of the players and chess, but only for the profits of the organizers.
Thomas, you have done a fine job, thanks. Even I, at my advanced age, believe I have grown wiser from this discussion, and that is something, after all
.
. But maybe we can bring it even further, mainly to the benefit of chess, but also to enlighten usd all.
Still, there is this verdict from the court in Lausanne. I have in no way a, so to say, religious belief that all court decisions are correct, but I suppose you can not deem this court as imcompetent.
So far, we (or at least I) only know the content of the verdict from Yazici¬¥s letter, which says something about “decisions” of ECU being ” cancelled” . Yazici draws some rather drastic conclusions from that, but what does it actually mean?
I am a complete layman in this field, but it seems that we have some jurisdic competence around in this discussion. to help us. By the way, is it possible to get to see the actual wordings of the verdict?
I think this has so far been a very constructive discussion – (well, OK, most of it
@Chessvine: Where we disagree is that you seem to think things will look brighter in the future, whereas I don’t see:
1. why a board should immediately resign if it loses one court case (does anyone who loses a court case immediately resign their job?)
2. why a ECU board resignation would bring about better people (are there good candidates?);
3. why it would be good to have these tournaments all organized in the same country (for one, we’ll get the same fotoshoots thrice!)
4. why it’s a good thing in general that some court can rule on decisions that affect so many chess players without their having a say in it.
So you see, even though I don’t deny the current ruling of the Lausanne court, I am just much more pessimistic.
Jens: I admire your constructive opinions, Jens. Indeed, what’s strange is that neither ECU or TCF have provided chess players/chess media with clear cut statements for their own benefit. What we have is a mediatic war between the two (and behind closed doors) with little regard for chess players themselves! All these elected officials have the responsability to explain things, to show documents, to be held responsible if they were wrong or to indicate paths to solutions if a compromise is to be reached. All we have is an arrogant letter of Yazici pregnant in “probable consequences” (one of the very many which one can find in chessbase.com archive over years) and complete silence from ECU.
The only good thing I can think of out of this whole episode with Lausanne court is the fact that gives some hope to people who will be wronged by FIDE or a regional federation – take your case to court and have them held responsible! The only problem in Yazici case is that his case looks morally weak and he doesn’t have the ground data to support that TCF should be rewarded every major European tournament just because it’s the strongest/more active chess federation in Europe or close to Europe in some ways. I actually admire some of ECU decision of rejecting bids from Turkey. It keeps the field balanced and allows other countries to breath some air and have some tournaments organized. If they aren’t give a chance, how would they possibly be able to grow and provide better organization over years? So development in its full sense means helping lesser developed areas to grow for the benefit of all. Yazici only sees his own/his own country’s development. That disqualifies him as a potential ECU leader or a a person who claims has the interests of all European chess players at heart. Sure, it’s great for national chess federations to have dynamic people liek Yazici to lead them – all kudos to him for that. But most of them don’t have it and they should be encouraged to build further and grow. That doesn’t happen if every event will be held in Antalya, does it?
Thomas is right in showing some statistics that indicate that Turkey did receive quite a number of events in the last 10 years. That may be another proof that Yazici uses TCF case just as a tool to throw a knife at Kutin and change the structure inside ECU for his own interests.
Dear lawyer,
Do you happen to be Yaznici’s lawyer? Fine with me, but then you can simply say so …. and otherwise it is at least remarkable that you exactly reproduce and fully endorse his arguments.
Anyway, some more fact-finding (am I the only one here checking facts?):
Who was bidding for the 2009 tournaments? According to ECU Circular Letter 6/2007 [on their homepage, I don't give the direct link as it may delay my post]:
European Individual Championship: Turkey (only candidate)
European Youth Championship: Italy, Georgia, FYR Macedonia, Turkey
European Club Cup: FYR Macedonia, Greece, Turkey, Poland
That’s how the decision might have gone (assuming that all bids were of roughly equal quality):
The individual championship was given to Turkey – of course, they were the only candidate. They were gambling that this would improve their chances for the other tournaments, maybe this would have been successful if they had mentioned the idea of a “package deal” beforehand.
The European Club Cup was given to FYR Macedonia – maybe because they had two bids, so one was rewarded.
The youth championships were given to Italy, for two reasons this also makes sense to me:
1) They hadn’t organized many tournaments before, so it simply was their turn?
2) [while I stayed out of or critized the "East-West or Europe-Asia" discussions], it still makes sense to hold a tournament in a western EU country at least once in a while??
One other thing – mentioned on the ECU homepage but (for whichever reason ….) not by Yaznici: his other/further claim to receive 50,000 Swiss Franks financial compensation from ECU was rejected.
Now I do some provocative “Swiss court bashing”: maybe the judges didn’t really understand the case and wanted to come up with a salomonic decision somewhere in between – unaware of the far-reaching consequences? It may be hard for judges (or anyone else) to admit that they are incompetent or rather non-eligible.
In any case, I am still puzzled that a Swiss court gets to make such decisions affecting all of Europe in the first place. And I wonder if it creates sort of a precedent for (remotely) similar future cases:
Can players go to court
- if they don’t accept an arbiter’s decision?
- if they accuse their opponent of cheating?
- if they aren’t invited to a particular tournament, but think they should?
Yes, Thomas.
Can players go to a normal legal court against FIDE Vice-President(s):
- if they were contractually promised some Grand-Prix locations but they received others in the last moment?
Everyone can go to a court, but it is not sure everyone wins though:-). The jurisdiction of the Swiss court is given by the ECU domicile in Lausanne. TCF failed to prove, that the 50.000‚Ǩ compensation is right, they lost in this point, which is also the reason ECU doesn’t have to pay all the costs of the case.
Marlowe, if Morozevich is right FIDE ‘wisely’ played it safe
– locations and tournament dates weren’t even part of their contracts! Quote from an interview at Chessbase, explaining why he refused to play the GP:
, and their potential host city nominees (Gurevich or Atalik) are even a bit stronger than the former ones Al-Modiakhi and Pelletier … .
“The players are being required to sign a contract to take part in four tournaments, without having any definite information about where or when they will be held. I do not think it is right that I should agree in advance to play wherever they might tell me. ”
As you seem to refer to Yazici’s role in the FIDE Grand Prix – he was “Chief of Media Team” in Baku and the websites say “powered by Turkish Chess Federation”: If Turkey is so eager to organize chess tournaments, why don’t they help out with the Grand Prix? Holding the last tournament in Istanbul (or even Ankara or Antalya) would slightly increase the GP geographic coverage
Thanks, Marlowe, for the nice words, which I would like to turn to you and the other participant in this debate, which now is becoming very interesting and constructive. So lets go on for a while!
The largest present problem in this case is in my eyes the concern for the hundreds of chess players planning to take part in the EU Team Ch and Youth Ch. . Of course they are sincerely worried, as Yazici´s expressions are putting these tournaments in jeopardy.
One of my chess students has already in details arranged his participation in the the Youth Ch. in Fermo, Italy in august. He has asked what I think will come out of this mess. Sadly , but understandably, I can not give him a concrete answer. He has contacted the organisers, and they say (of course?) that the tournament will be played as scheduled. I believe them, simply because I can not think the world can be THAT crazy, that a big, wellorganised ches event can be cancelled with less than four months respite. But maybe I am naive…
Any way: The ECU states that they are still considering the verdict, and maybe will appeal it. If they do that, does that not, at least temporarily, put the courts decision at halt? That was a question for our seemingly quite competent legal advisers in this discussion. And, if I am right, I guess the organisers in Struga and Fermo can go on without any legal worries.
Jens, understandably (as you know some players personally) you are mostly concerned with the fate of the _upcoming_ tournaments. But, as I wrote before, IMO the damage would be relatively limited if these events end up being postponed or moved to another location. This could also happen for other reasons – if a main sponsor goes bankrupt or, in the present case, if the tournament location was affected by the recent earthquake in Italy (it is not too far away from the epicentre). And maybe most of the damage/suffering is or would be to the organizers who already spent quite some time, money and (volunteer?) work to prepare the event.
So, with all respect, “the largest present problem” for me is the fate of the European championship that already took place. Several players qualified for the World Cup (after 11 rounds plus tiebreak in some cases), others obtained title norms and/or significant ELO gains. Was this all in vain? [Of course there were also some losing ELO who, from their egoistic points, may not mind if the tournament is cancelled a posteriori ...]. As the World Cup is in November/December this year, there would still be barely enough time to organize another European qualifier, but if not: Would Europe simply lose 23 qualifying spots (implying 23 first round byes for other players)? If the ‘qualified’(?) players join anyway, could someone then challenge the World Cup a posteriori??
With this in mind, more specific questions about effects of a possible appeal:
If it puts the courts decision at halt, but only “temporarily”, what would be gained if the initial decision is subsequently confirmed? One or two more tournaments being played, but subsequently declared void?!
In any case, how long would it take until we get another (then final?) decision? It took the court about 1 1/2 years to come up with his first verdict …. .
Sorry, some comments are delayed and I coudn’t answer them.
Thomas – I have nothing to do with the TCF and this case, I just wanted to emhasize, that in the legal point of view, Yazici can be right, which may to some normal people seem weird. It’s because I know, that lawyers have “damaged” thinking and language:-).
The 2007 choice of ECU is understandable, you mention the reasons. But as the court ruled, it was illegal to remove Turkay from the other bids only because they won the EIC. That’s all.
What will happen I don’t know, it would take a long time to study all the legislature and documents, some may be impossible to get. I think there is no problem with rating with EIC. The tournament wasn’t void, only the EIC bid. Question is, if the tournament was really an EIC. I thing that ECU will try its best to keep it so, otherwise the legal consequences would be really bad (and expensive – every player could sue them). This was a gross mistake of the board, that’s way I think, they really should resign. Maybe not immediatly – after sorting this out:-).
Next thing is, that the youth and ECC weren’t played yet and ECU will try to let them win the new bid (there was no legal bid according to court) or let them organize these events without a bid, if it is possible, so everything would be legal. I think even the TCF won’t bid against them.
But without the proper knowledge of all the stuff, I am just guessing…
Lawyer: what do you mean by “Question is, if the tournament ws really an EIC”.
Of course it was. What else was it? Just because – let’s be generous for a sec and grant TCF some credit here regarding some stuff with their bid for it – some irregularity took place in the bidding process, that doesn’t necessarily affect the nature and the scope of the event itself [EIC], does it? The bidding irregularity has nothing to do with the nature of the event, the event’s participation of representative players, and the event’s final results. In your argument, if TCF had a problem at the bidding process or the tournament wasn’t organized in Turkey, that makes it a lesser EIC? A non-EIC? A less representative EIC?
I believe the bidding process has nothing to do with the next phase which was the actual organization of the event from the release of participation forms and application to the final prize ceremony. Once a country was selected, the EIC has nothing to do with TCF anymore. Their case should stick to the bidding procedure and decisions. I hope the Court will realize that sooner or later (maybe during ECU’s appeal – which we’re going probably to get a result in 2010-11?).
Whatever happened during the bidding process should be judged on that particular time-line itself and who ever wronged should be penalized accordingly.
I also feel Yazici kind of rushed with his puerile letters to media. “Law is just and justice prevailed”…that’s a weird stuff as a headline, isn’t it? Justice is served when justice is heard. So let’s wait for the ECU appeal and a final decision. They are entitled to it. Somehow I respect more ECU’s silence and patience than Yazici’s spectacular moments of genuine noise.
Marlowe – I really didn’t want to spend the time, but you made me do it – I checked the ECU tournament rules:-). A real EIC must go through a valid bidding procedure (http://www.europechess.org/info37.aspx). The one in question was void, so from the legal point of view, there was no finished bidding procedure and there coudn’t be any legal EIC. I think that Yazici’s suggestions are the best possible – new bids (minimal time for the publishing of the letter of invitation is 4 months before the competition now) and ECU GA meeting – asap. GA can change the rules to let the tournaments in Italy and Fyrom, the EIC is a real problem, we all feel, that the best way now is to authorize the results from Budva as the tournament went as it should, but if anyone complains, it could make even a more horrible mess than we have now…
By the way, two interesting rules: 2.5…..the venue should change between the European federations; 2.8 No national chess federation shall be awarded the organization of an ECU competition in a three year period, with the exception of being the sole bidder for the event.
Lawyer: Thanks. Don’t exhaust yourself
That may be technical lawyerish stuff, but has little practicality and even lesser wisdom. Good luck to Yazici and ECU explaining to ALL European players who took part in the event that the EIC they spent their months on (including preparation, etc) is not a real EIC and that they should return the medals, cancel all results and replay a REAL EIC under the tagline “Welcome to Turkey!”. I bet not even 10%of the players who took part will even consider replaying it, let alone go to Turkey for it. It may make sense for a lawyer with no chess knowledge of organizing/running events of this magnitude and their consequences sitting in a fancy office and cashing in a fat bonus, but it simply makes little sense for the average chess players whose interests (allegedly) both ECU, TCF & FIDE protect. It’s just not practical, it’s anatagonizing and it’s in the detriment of chess basically. Yeah, OK…Legally TCF can/may do whatever they want to do with ECU and this case, but if their primary interests rests with the ’state of affairs that needs to end’, with higher hopes for better standards in events and they have the interests of chess players involved at heart – than cancelling these events is simply not just a slap on Kutin’s face (who care about that except Yazici, really?) but a slap on the face of respectable chess players. Good luck to Yazici & Co explaining that to the players involved and even more so good luck to him and TCF re-running an EIC who was just….played! It just ain’t going to happen. But maybe the threat serves him well: the threat is stronger than the execution, or so they say.
Relax, Marlowe, Lawyer has (also) made a fine job revealing details in this case.
From what he writes I suppose (and hope) that a realistic scenario from now on is: ECU gets its legal spanking, TCF will be compensated in some ways, the results from the EICs will be upheld and the organisers in Struga and Fermo can go on as scheduled. Anything else will mean complete chaos. Just is just, but reason will prevail!
Some ten years ago Karpov won a law sute against FIDE on how they dealed with the WCh in 1999. He got compensated, but they did not strip Khalifmann of his WCh-title anyway.
I wonder how much Thomashevsky (amo) can sue ECU for, if this is not sorted out…
And more thing: What is really embarrassing in this matter, is the silence from the central actors, first and foremost Yazici and Kutin. Well, it could be that they do not really care about the players and the organisers.
Jens: That’s kinda wishful thinking from your part. The track record of these organizations shows that if there’s something that potentially can wrong, crazy or totally irresponsible…it will! I rechecked some of Yazici’s other court cases/legal actions over the internet. His excited letters remind me of a guy who has everything to show to the world but the world kind of doesn’t really care. Hence the hysterical cry all the time. Wasn’t this guy the one who backed so heavily “The Right Move” against Kirsan and then was nominated by Kirsan as….Vice-President of FIDE? Wasn’t the same guy who called the other guy a corrupted official and made the case for a change in such a bombastic way and then…we find them shake hands and cut dubious deals? So I wouldn’t be surprised to see Yazici in a photo op with Kutin and cutting another kind of deal that advances his little schemes. The only thing worse than a politician is a chess politician, Jens.
@Jens. It’s interesting that you mention the Karpov vs. FIDE case. Did the FIDE president or board resign after this case?
Dear lawyer: Hard to argue with your statements on the “legal point of view” – provided that you really are a lawyer (which I/we can neither verify nor falsify)
. Yet I fully agree with your own words ” that lawyers have ‚Äúdamaged‚Äù thinking and language” – in my words: legal truth can be at odds with common sense!?
Concerning what you wrote today 0:45AM:
“A real EIC must go through a valid bidding procedure”
Now I wonder if there was anything wrong with the _EIC_ bidding procedure: Turkey was sole candidate, got the tournament but then retracted their own bid – so here if anyone did something wrong, it was Turkey?! Irrelevant as they did so immediately, it would have been relevant if they had changed their mind months later on … . As there were no organizers left, another solution had to be (and was) found.
There may have been irregularities in the bidding procedures for the other tournaments (at least from a legal point of view). But would this (also) render the EIC bidding procedure invalid, simply because all bids had the same deadline, and were discussed at the same board meeting? I don’t think so, and taking this into account, the EIC and World Cup qualification should be ’safe’ after all!?
There may be legal aspects to the contrary, which I cannot think of … because my own thinking isn’t ‘damaged’ enough … .
There is one good plan for all the chess players:
ECU appeals against the decision of the court and TCF then takes back its action – then there will be no court’s decision, that the ECU Board decisions were wrong and all the bids will remain “legal”, though we know, it is not as clear.
But this would need the will from TCF to do so – I hope they find quickly a solution with ECU, e.g. the ECU Board resigns for saving the EIC in Budva. Let’s see if they really have chess at heart – now I mean both, Yazici (TCF) and ECU.
Thomas: The court made the bids void, so there wasn’t any procedure from the legal point of view at all – and all these three competitions are really not safe now. I don’t know why, but I believe the court must have a good reason to say so. I didn’t see the documents, maybe the EIC was voided because of those 120.000 from FIDE mentioned by Yazici in his first letter, maybe there were other procedural mistakes. The other two are simple – the rights of TCF were injured. After reading the ECU rules, I am not quite sure about it (2.8 No national chess federation shall be awarded the organization of an ECU competition in a three year period, with the exception of being the sole bidder for the event), but if the court says so, I believe it. Maybe the rule is a new one after this incident. We know very little od this whole affair, the court knew everything needed and ruled as it ruled.
@ laywer: Yazici (TCF) woud never agree to it, lawyer. He waited for so long for this verdict and when it came out (no need to wait for an appeal and a really FINAL judgement) he went over the board and – under the disguise of ‘benefit of all chess players’ – mentioned Kutin’s attempts to dethrone him in Turkey’s chess politics, etc. This is deeply personal now and when that happens – even the best of men [and I'm not saying Yazici or Kutin belong to this category] have their judgement clouded. Yazici – FIDE Vice-President and President of TCF (one of the most active chess bodies around the globe) – has a legal decision on his side and won’t bow down easily unless Kutin resigns. Which proves my initial point: all this talk about cancelling EIC is non-sense. He’s just using it to extract a resignation and change the balance of ECU power into his favor. That’s the game right there.
Another actor that keeps a suspicious silence on the matter is none other than..FIDE. Their website doesn’t even give this news! Not important for chess? Better read about chess in Philippines? I call this a very clumsy way of pretending FIDE is impartial in the matter and Yazici acts solely as a TCF official. Wasn’t FIDE suppose to have a wise word/advice for both parties in this sort of conflict? Their little scheme not to publish Yazici letter and the news about the legal court involving ECU and TCF is …typical FIDE, isn’t it? Laywer, since you’re at it and seems to have a little bit of talent for reading laws and statutes, maybe you can clear if FIDE should have intervened or reacted to this case differently than it did [their reaction was NO reaction, NO news, NO comment].
No, Arne they/he did not resign at all
. As far as I remember it all ended up with Karpov receiving some quite heavy economical compensation, and that was it. The point in question was that FIDE had broken some contractual obligations to the WCh, which was Karpov at that time (after winning a phony match against Anand in Lausanne in the beginning of 1999). After THAT court decision, I believe you could legally claim that Khalifmans WCh-title from 1999 was void, but no one has ever done that – by far not FIDE.
By the way: At that time Susza Polgar also sued FIDE on some mattters on the Woman WCh – I can not remember what came out of it.
And some little more recent chess history: Kutin supported Kirsan in 2006, Yazici supported Bessel Kok. Yes, this is indeed not an ordinairy world!