Comments on: [lang_nl]Ronde 12 met commentaar[/lang_nl][lang_en]Round 12 with comments[/lang_en]

By: gogomil

gogomil — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:15:44 +0000

Its a terrible blunder agree, but human chess has to have blunders! And its always easyer from aside. Still I remember a computer programs final where one of them gives a rook away and some top players start talking about how uncomplete the programs still are . The program explaned the blunder with math in 3 which no one had seen :]

By: arne

arne — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:29:47 +0000

Well, Frits, I agree the mate was not so difficult to find, but then why didn’t Topalov find it?! Anyway, my point is mainly that the blunder wasn’t THAT obvious and that MANY people who condemn the players and say they are making silly blunders, are in fact just copying what their computer says. Apart from that, I agree there are surely more complex lines that Topalov IS capable of calculating. But it wasn’t all that easy. Apparently.

By: Frits Fritschy

Frits Fritschy — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:18:45 +0000

Arne, what you describe is a problem for the white player. ‘Will my checks really force a mate?’
As I already said, Black doesn’t have to calculate a mate, he should just sense the danger. His king is all alone and his knight is under attack, so he just has two moves to consider: Nc6 and Qd5. After Nc6 35 Qf6+ Kg8 36 Qe6+ the king is still alone. After Qd5 35 Qe7+ Kg8 36 Qe8+ Kg7 39 Be7? you can play Qf7 and it’s over. What else can white do (apart from the draw)?
Now what can Topalov have missed? That the knight and e5 aren’t under attack anymore after Be7? That Bf1 is attacked after Qf7? Not very likely.
Moreover, even if he was in time trouble, Carlsen used 25 minutes on 34 Bd8. What has Topalov been doing in that time? I guess he expected 34 Bh6+ and his hand made the move he was just calculating – in a different variation. Something like that.
In Morelia Leko played nearly a complete game against Aronian in 25 minutes, more or less faultless, and that was really complex.

By: Mattovsky

Mattovsky — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:56:39 +0000

It’s a noble gesture that some people (especially arne) are taking Topalov’s defence but you are exaggerating. In fact, you are almost insulting him by suggesting that it was difficult for him to find such a straightforward line. Come on, this is absolutely elementary stuff for a world class player. Topalov just had a blackout and that’s it.

By: arne

arne — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:31:23 +0000

@Well, Andy, of course, but then why care about *anything* at all?

By: bobmutch

bobmutch — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:16:02 +0000

After Topalov’s 34… Nc6 Magnus had a forced mate in six.
35.Qf6+ Kg8 36.Qe6+ Kf8 37.Bg5 Kg7 38.Qf6+ Kg8 39.Bh6… 40.Qg7

If it is not a blunder in a position where one has a draw position then makes a move where you give you opponent a forced mate in 6 then I don’t know what a blunder is.

No he didn’t hang a piece, no it wasn’t a mate in one but still at this level of chess when some one is not in time trouble, seeing a forced mate in 6 is not all that hard.

By: Andy

Andy — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:12:17 +0000

Who cares is Magnus was “lucky” ?!?

He won the game!

By: arne

arne — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:14:59 +0000

The problem, I think, is that there are several checks coming into consideration. And suddenly there’s this quiet move Bg5 winning. But it still requires calculation: what if it’s not mate, what if the Black king escapes?
I don’t believe any 2100 will find this combination after a tumultuous middle game in which you’re probably winning against an extremely tough opponent. It’s easy to show the position to a weak player and say ‘find the mate’ – but then you’re already assuming it’s there and therefore invalidating the experiment.
It would be better to ask a player to find the best move in this position, or only to evaluate it. Or give limited time and say if you don’t find the right move and the correct evaluation, it costs you 100 euros. Let’s see how many people are still so confident about spotting the ‘easy win’.

By: Tchaz

Tchaz — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:02:35 +0000

And yet, on ICC atleast, several strong players, including Nakamura, confessed to not seeing the mate (missing Bg5).

By: Dan Dalthorp

Dan Dalthorp — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 23:44:16 +0000

I showed my 12 year old, 900 Elo son the Carlsen-Topalov position after Nc6. He found Qf6+, Qe6+ and Bg5 without hesitation. After Bg5, the mate is obvious. I had to prompt him a bit to find the easier “mate in two” if the king had tried to escape via Kh6. He missed Qf8+ and took 10 seconds or so to find Be2#.