Comments on: Shirov on the world championship cycle http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/ The latest chess news online Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:06:40 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: xtra http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92185 xtra Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:00:00 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92185 I would like to just point out to this discussion, if it isnt too late, that there are actually two questions being discussed. One is about the current WC cycle, privileges, fairness and stuff like that. The other is about how FIDE goes about making decisions. The later one is, I think, actually where the Carlsens were making their largest objections, which I think maybe some have missed or misunderstood. For example, it is a problem that FIDE gives some players advantage and creates unfair systems, but in a sense it is an even larger problem that they dont provide reasons for their decisions, nor to how they think and reasons or which conditions they are taking into account. (if FIDE actually had to provide reasons for what they do, much of it couldnt be done, because they cant give good reasons. Like the president getting to nominate players...why in the world does he get to do that? Dumbest thing ever...) I would like to just point out to this discussion, if it isnt too late, that there are actually two questions being discussed. One is about the current WC cycle, privileges, fairness and stuff like that. The other is about how FIDE goes about making decisions. The later one is, I think, actually where the Carlsens were making their largest objections, which I think maybe some have missed or misunderstood. For example, it is a problem that FIDE gives some players advantage and creates unfair systems, but in a sense it is an even larger problem that they dont provide reasons for their decisions, nor to how they think and reasons or which conditions they are taking into account.

(if FIDE actually had to provide reasons for what they do, much of it couldnt be done, because they cant give good reasons. Like the president getting to nominate players…why in the world does he get to do that? Dumbest thing ever…)

]]> By: Castro http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92166 Castro Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:44:21 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92166 I didn't say he hasn't been treated with privileges on his way to championship. I say: 1. It's not a question of being "my hero". That's simple nonsense. 2. He indeed was a overwelming chess strengh (like no one, ever), and he would reach it anyway. 3. Everybody felt that kid shoud be put fighting for world champion as soon as posible, otherwise everybody was just missing life. 4. In spite of that, many errors were done, and many people (FIDE included) not only bent rules and assumed responsabilities, but also mislead and betryed him. (Sousse interzonal is just an example). 4. That's why In strict terms your first sentence is right: Rules are being bent, but ALL THE TIME. With Kasparov, with Karpov,... Remember the Olympiads. I like Ivanchuck and Ukraine, but we know what happens when these names and chesses are replaced by, say, Press and Papua New Guinea. The final classification would IMEDIATELY been changed (Hungary would have a medal, AND THAT VERY DAY) 5. For Fischer at that time, not having some kind of priveleges -- Which he realy fight and claim for and that put every future GM in benefit even out of previleges! -- that would be a ridiculous exception, GIVEN WHAT FISCHER (your monster) WAS, in chess. 6. That's why your first original and lucid sentence is followed by an hillarious and science fiction other. I didn’t say he hasn’t been treated with privileges on his way to championship. I say:
1. It’s not a question of being “my hero”. That’s simple nonsense.
2. He indeed was a overwelming chess strengh (like no one, ever), and he would reach it anyway.
3. Everybody felt that kid shoud be put fighting for world champion as soon as posible, otherwise everybody was just missing life.
4. In spite of that, many errors were done, and many people (FIDE included) not only bent rules and assumed responsabilities, but also mislead and betryed him. (Sousse interzonal is just an example).
4. That’s why In strict terms your first sentence is right: Rules are being bent, but ALL THE TIME. With Kasparov, with Karpov,… Remember the Olympiads. I like Ivanchuck and Ukraine, but we know what happens when these names and chesses are replaced by, say, Press and Papua New Guinea. The final classification would IMEDIATELY been changed (Hungary would have a medal, AND THAT VERY DAY)
5. For Fischer at that time, not having some kind of priveleges — Which he realy fight and claim for and that put every future GM in benefit even out of previleges! — that would be a ridiculous exception, GIVEN WHAT FISCHER (your monster) WAS, in chess.
6. That’s why your first original and lucid sentence is followed by an hillarious and science fiction other.

]]> By: me http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92163 me Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:28:13 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92163 @castro Which rule was bended against him? Tell me. On the other hand, he refused to participate in US championship which also served as a zonal tournament. Then they payed off Benko to give his spot to Fischer. The only problem was that Benko couldn't just "give" his spot to anyone. You see, when one of the qualified players declines, then the next one in line (in this case the 4th placed from the US championship) gets the ticket. If he/she also declines it goes to the 5th placed, etc. So in reality Benko couldn't GIVE his spot to anybody. USCF and FIDE bent all possible rules to allow Fischer to participate. Also didn't FIDE change the Candidates system when Fischer cried how the Soviets are all against him. And the best thing was, that when they did change it the way Fischer wanted, he refused to participate anyway. Also, when becoming the World Champion he just simply said that the format needs to be changed or he won't play. Excuse me, but who the hell is he to dictate the rules just like that, when majority saw no need to change anything - just look how many people want to revert back to the "good old times". And again, when they eventually did accept all of his reasonable (and some unreasonable) demands, he refused to play by demanding one more crazy thing - the 9-9 clause. So FIDE finnally came to his sences and draw the line. So you see, your hero was the most privileged player of all time. NOBODY received so much from FIDE than him. @castro

Which rule was bended against him? Tell me.

On the other hand, he refused to participate in US championship which also served as a zonal tournament. Then they payed off Benko to give his spot to Fischer. The only problem was that Benko couldn’t just “give” his spot to anyone. You see, when one of the qualified players declines, then the next one in line (in this case the 4th placed from the US championship) gets the ticket. If he/she also declines it goes to the 5th placed, etc. So in reality Benko couldn’t GIVE his spot to anybody. USCF and FIDE bent all possible rules to allow Fischer to participate.
Also didn’t FIDE change the Candidates system when Fischer cried how the Soviets are all against him. And the best thing was, that when they did change it the way Fischer wanted, he refused to participate anyway.
Also, when becoming the World Champion he just simply said that the format needs to be changed or he won’t play. Excuse me, but who the hell is he to dictate the rules just like that, when majority saw no need to change anything – just look how many people want to revert back to the “good old times”. And again, when they eventually did accept all of his reasonable (and some unreasonable) demands, he refused to play by demanding one more crazy thing – the 9-9 clause. So FIDE finnally came to his sences and draw the line.
So you see, your hero was the most privileged player of all time. NOBODY received so much from FIDE than him.

]]> By: Castro http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92160 Castro Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:51:12 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92160 Its amazing what one reads about the WCC past! @GuidedByVoices "From a historical point of view", for instances, Steinitz didn't "hide" from no one. Lasker did some hiding but eventualy played the best, over and over (Rubinstein and Maroczy were simply victims of the Capablanca phenomenon). Capablanca did hide for a while from Alekhine, and Alekhine simply made Capa pay back. Bogolyubov and Euwe were all the strong that it takes for a WCC match at those times, but many people love to say different. Keres (as Bronstein and some others) could also have been champions, but Botvinik would have his time, anyway. @me "The rules were bend multiple times in history too. Fischer, for example, would never become a world champion if Euwe (FIDE president at that time) wouldn’t bend all possible rules for him." What?? After bending lots against him, maybe! He would be champion much younger, you could say. Oh Lord forgive them... Its amazing what one reads about the WCC past!

@GuidedByVoices
“From a historical point of view”, for instances, Steinitz didn’t “hide” from no one. Lasker did some hiding but eventualy played the best, over and over (Rubinstein and Maroczy were simply victims of the Capablanca phenomenon). Capablanca did hide for a while from Alekhine, and Alekhine simply made Capa pay back. Bogolyubov and Euwe were all the strong that it takes for a WCC match at those times, but many people love to say different. Keres (as Bronstein and some others) could also have been champions, but Botvinik would have his time, anyway.

@me
“The rules were bend multiple times in history too. Fischer, for example, would never become a world champion if Euwe (FIDE president at that time) wouldn‚Äôt bend all possible rules for him.”

What?? After bending lots against him, maybe! He would be champion much younger, you could say. Oh Lord forgive them…

]]> By: test http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92158 test Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:17:22 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92158 This thread in general reminded me of the following: A few tips for anybody making public statements, on the internet or elsewhere, interviews included. If what you say contains only the smallest bit of ambiguity: at least 50% of anybody reading it will misunderstand it or use it to twist your words around and give it unintended meanings. Before making a statement one should try to think of all the ways people could twist it around and use it against you; so try making the statement in such a way that this is impossible. Be as clear as humanly possible. Don't try to use clever wording. NO IRONY (it will be misunderstood), NO SARCASM (it will be misunderstood). Use simple sentences and stick to the point. Do not bother with anything but the main point. SPELL OUT your point, even if it seems blatently obvious (or it will be misunderstood)... You get the idea. ;) (Unless you have an agenda to hide, then you should probably do the opposite. ;)) This thread in general reminded me of the following:

A few tips for anybody making public statements, on the internet or elsewhere, interviews included.

If what you say contains only the smallest bit of ambiguity: at least 50% of anybody reading it will misunderstand it or use it to twist your words around and give it unintended meanings.

Before making a statement one should try to think of all the ways people could twist it around and use it against you; so try making the statement in such a way that this is impossible.
Be as clear as humanly possible. Don’t try to use clever wording. NO IRONY (it will be misunderstood), NO SARCASM (it will be misunderstood). Use simple sentences and stick to the point. Do not bother with anything but the main point. SPELL OUT your point, even if it seems blatently obvious (or it will be misunderstood)…

You get the idea. ;)

(Unless you have an agenda to hide, then you should probably do the opposite. ;) )

]]> By: Thomas http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92149 Thomas Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:00:02 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92149 "In Chess, as opposed to some other sports, it is highly unlikely for any player outside the top 10 in the world to become No1 in just a few years. " What about Carlsen (#89 three years ago, #24 two years ago)? Wang Yue and maybe even Movsesian are potential other examples that 'the highly unlikely is not altogether impossible'. BTW, Wang Yue is presently #13 (Adams is #24) - I don't say he would have a chance against Anand in a match played tomorrow or next month, but I am not THAT sure two or three years from now (if he continues imrpoving as in the recent past). “In Chess, as opposed to some other sports, it is highly unlikely for any player outside the top 10 in the world to become No1 in just a few years. ”

What about Carlsen (#89 three years ago, #24 two years ago)? Wang Yue and maybe even Movsesian are potential other examples that ‘the highly unlikely is not altogether impossible’.
BTW, Wang Yue is presently #13 (Adams is #24) – I don’t say he would have a chance against Anand in a match played tomorrow or next month, but I am not THAT sure two or three years from now (if he continues imrpoving as in the recent past).

]]> By: Sutton http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92146 Sutton Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:24:03 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92146 In Chess, as opposed to some other sports, it is highly unlikely for any player outside the top 10 in the world to become No1 in just a few years. We know full well that Anand could, possibly, lose a title match to any player in the top 10. Possibly. Beyond that and no chance. Therefore we need to stop booing about participation for all. What was ever the point of having zonal qualification? All this did was allow top players to occasionally fail, and lesser players to advance to interzonals where they lost. The root of all these problems lie in complexity. Top 12 other than the champion - play some event, tournament or candidate matches whatever...The winner plays the champion. 16 games. I know that the 13th ranked player might kick up a fuss but would Michael Adams beat Anand? No! So what makes even weaker players think that they might? In Chess, as opposed to some other sports, it is highly unlikely for any player outside the top 10 in the world to become No1 in just a few years. We know full well that Anand could, possibly, lose a title match to any player in the top 10. Possibly. Beyond that and no chance. Therefore we need to stop booing about participation for all. What was ever the point of having zonal qualification? All this did was allow top players to occasionally fail, and lesser players to advance to interzonals where they lost. The root of all these problems lie in complexity. Top 12 other than the champion – play some event, tournament or candidate matches whatever…The winner plays the champion. 16 games. I know that the 13th ranked player might kick up a fuss but would Michael Adams beat Anand? No! So what makes even weaker players think that they might?

]]> By: Thomas http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92143 Thomas Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:54:06 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92143 If I was Peter Doggers (or Mig Greengard for chessninja.com), I would verify that "Alexei Shirov" is really GM Shirov - and I am pretty sure they did ! If I was Peter Doggers (or Mig Greengard for chessninja.com), I would verify that “Alexei Shirov” is really GM Shirov – and I am pretty sure they did !

]]> By: pete http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92142 pete Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:47:30 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92142 guys how do you know it is really Alexei Shirov writing those posts? It can be everybody afaik. guys how do you know it is really Alexei Shirov writing those posts? It can be everybody afaik.

]]> By: Thomas http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/shirov-i-feel-extremely-strange-defending-kramnik/comment-page-1/#comment-92117 Thomas Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:45:26 +0000 http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=6693#comment-92117 Excellent - "Shirov on the world championship cycle" is a nice summary of the contents. And implicitly, it is clear that the full article is likely to be more relevant than a hypothetical "Jansen on the world championship cycle" [of course I just put a rather common (Dutch) name, not meaning any particular person]. GM Shirov deserves credit for putting (well-founded) personal emotions aside, and maybe even more for insisting that this is not worthwhile stressing too much - it is still clear from reading the entire post, that's sufficient. Excellent – “Shirov on the world championship cycle” is a nice summary of the contents. And implicitly, it is clear that the full article is likely to be more relevant than a hypothetical “Jansen on the world championship cycle” [of course I just put a rather common (Dutch) name, not meaning any particular person].

GM Shirov deserves credit for putting (well-founded) personal emotions aside, and maybe even more for insisting that this is not worthwhile stressing too much – it is still clear from reading the entire post, that’s sufficient.

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